Would like help finding ammunition for Foerster 9.5x47R black powder

[Cousin Mike]

Howdy folks.
As I mentioned in my post on the "Newbies, Introduce Yourself" forum http://www.germanguns.com/upload/sho...rom-a-newbie-), I have two old German guns I am interested in finding ammunition for so that I can get them out on the range and in the woods. I took them to a gunsmith and he identified one as an 8x57IR (JR), by C. Grundig. I'd be happy to post some pictures of it later if anyone is interested. I ordered some ammo for it and will take it out soon! :-). The second gun will pose more of a problem and that's why my gunsmith suggested I come here to GGCA. He took a chamber casting and determined the gun is chambered for 9.5x47R, which apparently is an obsolete round. He also said "Somebody, somewhere... can get this." So my question is, does anyone here know where? I have done a little reading, just enough to learn this might involve "finding such-and-such cartridge, cutting the brass down, resizing necks" etc.. I am not equipped to do this myself, but I would like to try to find someone who does this already. Or who can. So, any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. I really do intend to get the ammo and take this gun hunting. It would be a shame not to.

Secondarily, I would be very interested in any information you might have which could date when this gun was made and for whom.

Now for some pictures. Everyone likes pictures, right? :-)
The top gun is the 9.5x47R Foerster. The bottom is the 8x57JR Grundig. The rest of the pictures below will be of the Foerster.
full-length.jpg

Some proof marks, etc. on the Foerster.
Foerster-proofs-1.jpg Foerster-proofs-2.jpg Foerster-proofs-barrel.jpg

The crown on the trigger guard. I am very intrigued by this!
Foerster-trigger-guard-1.jpg

I guess there is a limit on the number of pictures in a post? I'll add the rest of the pictures in a reply to this post.

[Cousin Mike]

Here is another picture of the crown on the trigger guard.
Foerster-trigger-guard-2.jpg

And some other pictures.
Foerster-1.jpg Foerster-2.jpg Foerster-3.jpg

[mike ford]

Cousin Mike,
I am astounded that your family was able to keep both these rifles for 70 years, in the fine condition they are in. If they were mine, I would be very proud of them, and pass them on( later) to other family members. What a great way to honor your grandfather's memory. The 99,70 mark, within the proofmarks, is the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter expressed in gauge measurement. This mark was used from early 1893, until 1912. Therefore, your rifle was made during this time period. Unfortunately, I don't recognize the monogram on the trigger guard. One of the other members of the Association might recognize it, but if so, it will be lucky. Very often people are disappointed that they can't show ownership by some famous royal personage. Your rifle, certainly, is nothing to be disappointed in, regardless of the monogram. As far as ammunition is concerned, I am certain some other members use rifles in this caliber( I don't); but I will wait for one of them to "chime in". You likely figured out, from my answer to your other post, that I am a believer of handloading. BTW, if you post photos of the proofmarks on the 8x57IR, we can likely give you more information for it also.
Mike

[fuhrmann]

Cousin Mike

both are high quality rifles, in very good condition!
Quite a feast to look at - your grandfather chose wisely!
Both are single shot hunting rifles, clearly "gentleman style" and quality.
The rifle by Förster, as Mike said was made around 1900 (by the the style and cartridge choice a bit oldfashioned) the rifle from Gründig might be from the 1920s or 30s, a generation later.

For 9,5x47R cartridges, I know of one source in Austria
http://www.waffen-dorfner.at/seltene-buchsenpatronen/

The other option, as Mike said is handloading.

The monogram with crown shows that the first owner was a nobleman.
The shape of the crown hints to his rank
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangkrone
(sorry, this is in german, but you will get an idea).
This one might have been a Herzog/duke or a Fürst/prince, quite high up the ladder.
But who exactly, no idea

Regards,
fuhrmann

[sharps4590]

Lovely rifles. The upper one in the first picture particularly melts my heart. That is one cool rifle!

Pricey but, here's your brass.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...ategoryId/840?

Here's the dies and Dave may have them in stock.

http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/ca...lter=9.5+X+47R

Slug the bore, get a mold, cast some bullets and your in business. I shoot a 10.5 X 47R and to my knowledge all those X47R cartridges are a handloading proposition. They're also a lot of fun. If you're a store bought ammo guy I apologize that I am of no help.

[Cousin Mike]

Mike, I honestly believe these guns have been tucked away in gun cabinets or closets for most of the time they've been in the states. My grandfather died in 1963 (I think) which means my dad would have had possession of them since then. From the time we were toddlers Dad had us out hunting and fishing, and I don't ever remember seeing these guns in use. And now I've had them for 15 years or so, tucked away in another closet. They just haven't had much opportunity to be damaged. And I won't be disappointed if we can't determine who the first owner was. It's interesting to think about though. What I really want to do is get some ammo for it, and I see there are some suggestions below :-).

Thanks for your reply.
Here are some pics of the proofs on the 8x57IR.
Grundig-proofs-1.jpg Grundig-proofs-2.jpg Grundig-proofs-3.jpg

And here's another picture of it. It's the bottom gun.
Both.jpg

[Cousin Mike]

Thank you for the kind words fuhrmann. And thank you for the information too. Interesting.

I went to the waffen-dorfner site and poked around, hoping to find a link that said "English version here" :-). There was not, but there was a place to contact them with comments, so I sent a message explaining that I could not speak German but that I had some questions about their 9,5x47R ammunition. Hopefully someone there will be more versatile, linguistically, than I am. I'd like to find out how old that ammo might be (I don't want to buy 100 year old ammunition), and whether they could ship it to me in Texas, USA.

[Cousin Mike]

Thank you for the good information sharps. You make it sound so simple :-). I knew going into this that loading my own cartridges might be in my future, and it is something I'm willing to do if that's what it takes.

[fuhrmann]

Cousin Mike

on the Dorfner website is this statement:

Die Patronen sind neu gefertigt, CIP geprüft und zu 20 Stück verpackt.
Cartridges are newly made, tested according to CIP and sold in packs of 20.

Talking about CIP: the 9,5x47R was obsolete way before the international CIP standardisation rules, or similar german rules were established.
Meaning: there never was a standard for cartridge case and rifle chamber dimensions, and there is a chance that cartidges made by company A simply won't fit into chambers cut by gunmaker B.
Back in 1900 ammunition probably would have been supplied by your trusty gunsmith who also had sold you the rifle, so he would take care of the problem.
Your gunsmith also would reload your fired cases, if you were not willing to do it yourself.

So, you will really think about reloading if the bought cartridges don't fit correctly or don't shoot that well, or considering everything works fine, you start to collect empty cases!

I'll be curious to hear if Dorfner is able to ship ammunition to the US in these over-regulated times.

[algmule]

Cousin Mike,

As a thank you to you for posting images of that neat W. Foerster rifle I give you an ad from W. Foerster. It will of course not help you with the ammo bother but I believe others have already sorted that for you or are in the process of doing so.
WFoersterHofbüchsenmacherBerlinK1872.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[sharps4590]

furhmann brings up some salient points that unfortunately are very true when it comes to the old cartridges. I'm glad he mentioned the possible differences in case dimensions and I apologize for being remiss. If you still have the chamber cast or the dimensions of it a call to Grafs asking if they would measure the Bertram brass so you could compare dimensions might be worthwhile. I don't know if Bertrams has a web site that gives their dimensions but that might be worth a look also. Or, maybe an e-mail to Bertams or Graf's? Slugging the bore is easy and Accurate Molds in Salt Lake can alter one of their many bullet designs to fit your rifle. Of that I have no doubt as Tom has done so for me. The interior dimensions of the dies would also be good to know and a call or e-mail to CH-4D might produce them.

To load for the old cartridge won't be particularly difficult once a fella gets all the toys in hand but it could turn into an expensive proposition for one cartridge. Which to my decidedly biased opinion is money well spent... All I saw about the 9.5 rifle was fuhrmann's comment about it being made around 1900. I didn't see a Nitro proof mark or read of one. It that's the case then the rifle is relegated to either black powder or low pressure smokeless loads....which doesn't matter, really, as the 9.5 X 47R was a low pressure cartridge. To load with black powder successfully requires the jumping through of a few more hoops but it isn't difficult and can be rewarding. BP is all I use in my 105 X 47R as it pre-dates even the 1891 or 1893 proof law...I forget the correct year for it.

[Diz]

Cousin Mike,

Great looking rifles and wish you the best of luck with them. Here is the only detailed drawing I have from DMW for a 9.5x47R cartridge. I am not familiar with this one so others will have to confirm or deny if it is the right one. You can check your chamber cast against it.

95x47R0001.jpg

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

Diz, does DWM list a bullet weight? None of my meager sources do. Given it's 375-380-ish diameter I would assume 200-250 grs.?

[mike ford]

Cousin Mike,
I waited a day, thinking one of our 9.5x47R shooters might respond. Now, you might contact GAD Custom Cartridges (info@gadcustomcartridges.com). They don't include 9.5x47R in their listing of cartridges available. They might agree to load some for you. The bullet is a .375-.382" diameter one, similar to those for 38-55 Win./Ballard. The correct case is a .516" head diameter case with a "Mauser Base"(MB). Bertrams has 11.15 x60R(43)Mauser cases, which meet these dimensions, if shortened to 47mm. They, alone, cost more than $3.00 each, plus shipping. For other similar cartridges, we often use the common 45-70 cases modified to include a MB type rim. This is a much cheaper solution and more reliable concerning supply. The 45-70 cases are .010-.015" smaller at the head, but will expand to fit the chamber. To modify the rims requires equipment not normally owned by a handloader. A less elegant, but perfectly useable, solution uses the 45-70 case with the headspace controlled by carefully sizing the cases to fit the individual chamber. As furhmann and sharps 4590 mention, these chamber dimensions often vary, especially shoulder location( controls headspace with 45-70 rim). As a consequence, it would be necessary for the person making cases from 45-70, to have the rifle "in hand", to adjust the dies correctly. As a matter of fact, even with the expensive cases, this would be better. Of course we all have different opinions, but none of us can speak for you in this matter. If you will not load the cartridges yourself, and if you can't buy them, there may be another way to secure them. If you are willing to buy the dies/shell holder, cases, bullets, etc., maybe one of your friends, that handloads, would agree to help you and load them. This way, you would not have to invest in the other necessary equipment(press, scales, measure, etc.), and you would be comfortable letting him borrow the rifle. He would have a very interesting project, with you paying for it. This way, also, you would be able to shoot as much as you want. It is not unheard of for custom loaded ammo to cost well over $100/20, which naturally would restrict your ability to shoot it. You haven't mentioned where you live, so we can't determine if one of us lives close enough to help.
Mike

[fuhrmann]

The 1910 catalog from Burgsmüller gives some data for the 9,5x47R:
bullet weight ca. 13,5 g or 208 grain, round nose for target shooting, flat nose for hunting
black powder load 2,5 g or 38,6 grain

Dorfner uses 15 g / 231, grain bullets in his modern load.
No info on powder given, but I assume blackpowder is used.