Collath Drilling Update

[Diz]

Just wanted to post an update on loads for the rifle of my Collath drilling. Thanks to Mike’s friend Bill M who was willing to share some hard to get 9.3 S&B bullets I was able to continue. Try as I might I could not get a reformed bullet to perform well enough in this gun. My “Quick Load” program picked N-135 as one of the better but I was convinced to try 3031 first. It ran a bit more velocity but the grouping wasn’t there. I went back to Vihtvouri N-135 and the target and chronograph printout are shown below.

Collath Target 8 August0001.jpg


The target says EZ2C but for my old eyes it wasn’t and this is about as good as I can hold with open sights. I checked the target after the first shot to see if I was on and that hit is slightly left of the main group out of a cold, oily barrel. I had five more in the box but couldn’t continue after seeing this come together. This string was shot without cooling between shots and at a rate of an easy pace of loading, unloading and reloading. I'm sure better groups have been shot with drillings but I am pretty happy with this at 1-5/8".

Special thanks to Bill M for sharing these bullets and Mike for putting me in touch with him. Great guys both of them.

Diz

[sharps4590]

I would be happy with that!!! Well done Diz! Velocities are right there where they should be. It appears a taller front sight is called for. That seems to happen about 50% of the time when I get another old rifle.

[mike ford]

I suggest you try it at 100 yds before deciding to change any thing. It looks like your eyes are young enough.
Mike

[Diz]

Vic & Mike,

I believe the mid-range trajectory for this bullet will put it just above the sight at 100 yards. For me to see the blade I had to hold it against the florescent part of the target so it was just about on the center. I am constantly amazed at the skill and craftsmanship put into these guns that gets them to shoot the way they do. I had the easy part.

Thanks, Diz

[Leatherman]

I had the opposite reaction in my double rifle Collath with 3031 doing better than N135. But mine is in the Collath 9.3x80 cartridge. I just got a 8x58R Sauer Collath Drilling that has single claw mounts and made a pair of scope rings useing Leupold extra high scope rings. I put a Burris 2-5x scope on it and got a 1 1/2" group at 100 yards. I agree these guns amaze me too. Now I am making mounts to fit a period German 4x scope on it. I also got a Collath cape gun in 7x57R the same day I got the drilling. Different place, in a Cabela's store in Columbus Ohio. I put a 2x7 Leupold scope on it . I found that when I shot it the barrels move forward on the rifle side about two paper thickness. Useing S&B 139 factory loads I can't do better than 5" group at 100 yards. I suspect I have a headspace problem. I was able to drive the hardened metal lug the Collath's have on the barrel that comes in contact with the round cam farther toward the cam. It now tightens up very tight on the left shotgun barrel but is still slightly off face on the right rifle barrel. I have reloaded six of the shells I shot in this gun and backed the die off the shell holder so I don't push the shoulder back to standard length in hopes this will correct any head space problems. Waiting on cooler weather to go shoot it again.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
I have used a 7x57R for many years(since 1971), and never had good results with a bullet lighter than 160 grains. I talked about this in my article " A Combination For All Seasons", and usually used the 173 gr. bullet. Check the depth of the rim recess, given the age of the Collaths, it may be chambered for a version of the 7x57R that has a "Mauser A Base" type rim, which is thicker than the common rim. I have a couple such rounds in my ammo "pile", and Axel wrote about the 8x57R version of this, in his fine article about 8x57 cartridges. Moving the shoulder forward by resetting the loading die should remedy your headspace problem, and I suggest you try heavier bullets (172 gr), more suited to the long leade in the chamber. I am interested in the 8x58R S&S. I have an 8x57R/360, and have been looking for an 8x58R S&S to play with, to get comparison data for an article about these two cartridges. Let us know how the handloading for this cartridges works out also.
Mike

[Diz]

Leatherman,

This is my first and currently my only Collath so I am not an expert but I have studied the action on mine closely and it would seem to me that if yours closes tight on the left and is off face on the right than the frame must be bent slightly. On mine there is a lug at the bottom of the barrels that engages the receiver and the pivot at the front is fitted very tightly with the extension that carries the cam. That extension may be bent out of alignment causing the condition you describe. Which barrel is the rifle? Is it the rifle side that is loose? I myself wouldn't try to correct this issue by adjusting the shoulder position of the case but by trying to get it back on the face first. Only my opinion.

Thanks, Diz

[Leatherman]

Mike, this is my second rifle in 8x58R SS. I have a Nagle and Mentz Herren single shot rifle which I shot a white tail doe with two years ago. The caliber is marginal for whitetail but I did my part and got a heart shot at 60 yards and she went down in less than 30 yards. The bullet passed through without doing too much damage as what the Germans liked back in the day. I am so used to our high velocity cartridges that explode with so much Balistic energy and cause tremendous internal damage. I originally got brass from Buffalo Arms that was reformed 30-40 Krag. They are out of stock now so I just bought another box of Bertram reformed brass from Graf and Sons with proper head stamping for $65.00. Buffalo Arms have the reloading dies and a 170 grain .318" bullet specifically made for the 8x58R round. It wound up being very accurate in both my guns. I don't remember where I got the load data from but I wrote it in my load book as 25 to 35 grains of 3031 giving 1500 and 1800 fps . The 35 grain load was the more accurate load in my Herren and works great in this Collath as well. I really like the low recoil especially in the light Herren as it weighs 5.2 pounds with a scope. The Collath is one of the lightest Drillings I have too. I can see why this was a very popular cartridge in the light German guns back in the day. I didn't get any crony data on my loads to verify the velocity. I will take the drilling out again with the cape gun and get you some data as soon as it cools down here in PA.

[Leatherman]

Diz, your comment made me examine my cape gun closer and I see a possible solution. If you look at that lug on the barrels that slides into the receiver, you will notice it is tapered but the receiver is a cut straight. At least it appears that way on my cape gun. Also the lug at the front pivot point aligns the barrels with the breech . As you close the action with the lever you can see the barrels and the front of the forearm cap and barrel pivot come together at the same time and both lock up tight. But I noticed the front pivot point don't align up just as the breech doesn't. Perhaps if the front lug could be allowed to move to the rifle barrel side it might allow the breech to align up properly. The slot where the pivot lug slides at the front is sloppy loose when the action is open. My other Collath guns are tight. It looks like the metal cap on the forearm has been squeezed together to tighten on the lug when the barrels are lowered to close. I was going to address this after I saw if the rifle will shoot but now I am going to try taking the cap off the end of the stock and see if the barrels will square up when closed. I hope I have explained this well enough. For all of you who have never closely examined a Collath this won't make sense for sure. They are a unique action to themselves .

[Diz]

Leatherman,

Mine is fitted so tightly at the fore end that it has to be perfectly aligned to assemble it. Mine also has the lug as I mentioned before but I believe it is to take the force that would spring the action open when fired and help with locating the barrels when closing but not necessarily just for that point. My suggestion would be to take a good machinist square and place it across the face of the receiver and check the alignment of the extension. Then align it with the extension and check the face. I would think that close examination both ways would show up something.

It certainly is a different action in the way it works but it still has to line up. One more thing, does the barrel show the same gap from top to bottom? Too bad we are not closer together. I would enjoy a look at it.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
Thanks for the info. It seems your loads are a little bit slow for the 170 grain bullet, more in line with 196 gr. With 170 grain bullets in the 8x57R/360 and 4895, 2150fps seems about right. My late friend and mentor Gene Enterkin had an o/u combo in 8x58S&S( haven't found it) and always used reformed original length 38-55 cases, with complete satisfaction. He just loaded the bullets "out". This was before full length (although expensive) cases were available. Even though I'm using original Berdan primed cases, 8x57R/360 cases fireformed from 38-55( 2.125") work just fine in my drilling. I am also planning to work up the dies necessary to form cases from 303 Brit. and 30-40 Krag. They will also work in the 8x58S&S , as you found out from Buffalo Arms. The rims must be turned and likely thinned, depending on the rifle. In my case the 38-55 cases had to be thinned, and I did it from the rear, wiping out the old headstamp. BTW did you ever check to see if your 7x57R is the "A base" version?
Mike

[Leatherman]

Diz, I checked the alignment with a sqare as you suggested and it definitely appears that the front slot in the forearm is not in line with the face of the receiver. Especially on the side that the rifle is on (right side). This forces the barrels at the rear to the right which creates the off face condition. Looks like an easy fix so I thank you for the added opinion and suggestions.
Mike I dropped a S&B cartridge in the chamber with the barrels off the receiver and the rim is actually slightly proud above the extractor and breech. About 1/64". I am not sure but I believe this is a later production Collath gun by the design of the stock . I have some Hornady 162grain loads that I will try next time out. I am going to keep trying some reloads with lighter bullets and try seating them out to see if I can get them to shoot. I was hopeing to take this gun to Africa next year and from previous experience I need as flat shooting bullet I can get. Most shots where I hunt there is 300 yards and up. If this doesn't work I have a 6.5x57 drilling that is a tack driver and it will go with me.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
The "A base" idea was just a thought. I love my 6.5x57R drilling also.
Mike

[Diz]

Leatherman,

Happy to help and I think it is a very do-able home repair. Slow and easy will get it back in position I am sure. I used a 264 Win Mag for all my plains game on several hunts and it performed perfectly. I wouldn't be afraid to use that 6.5x57 if you have to.

I may try Collath at a hundred as Mike suggests, if it ever gets a little cooler and will report. Please keep us up on how your repair goes and good luck.

Diz

[Leatherman]

I took the forearm wood off the Collath this weekend and decided that the forearm metal support had somehow been bent to the left probably in a fall. Since the Collath's barrel is pined and hinges at the front of the forearm this did not allow the barrels breech' to align flat to the receiver. I just clamped the support in a vise and gave it a slight push to the right and put it back together and WahLa! Both barrels fit tight to the breech. There is still a gap of .010" in the front hinge were the barrel lug slides in the forearm support. It is only felt when the action is fully open and the barrels swing side to side slightly. My other Collath's are nice and tight. I can fix this with some shim stock and JB Weld. I am happy this was such an easy fix. Now back to the range to see if this helps the accuracy any.