5.6 vH update

[wernerhelm]

Finally after the die issues and assistance form some of the forum members on here I finally have some rounds to test fire.
I believe that due to the bore not being to spec, this might be the first time the rifle will have actually ever been fired.
Once the weather breaks here in North Texas-- the highs are around 100 right now, Ill fire and post some results.

IMG_1285.jpgIMG_1285.jpg

[mike ford]

wernerhelm,
Great, let us know how it works out.
Mike

[Diz]

wernerhelm,

Not many guys have the perseverance to get through all the difficulties you've had with this one. I'm sure the effort will be rewarded. Good luck and can't wait to here how it goes.

Thanks, Diz

[wernerhelm]

I finally test fired the rifle yesterday. we started Out at 38 grains of Reloader 19 and got 2559 ft/sec. We then progressed up to 46 grains. The cases started bulging at 45 grains(2988 ft/sec).
Here is a brief summary of grains of powder and velocity

39 2540, 2570, 2590

40 2656 2636 2659

41 2772 2708 2689

42 2782 2777 2802

43 2833

44 2899

45 2988 Case bulged near base

46 3087 Case bulged near base
the bullets were the hornady .227 70 grain and we experienced no tumbling at the target-- all shots made a nice hole in the target.
I am thinking that we will keep the loads at the 42 or 43 grain range.
It sure was fun to finally get to shoot it.
Now the process of saving the money to get a worthy scope and the claw mounts made!

[mike ford]

wernerhelm,
I used "Military pull down" 4895 which has a similar burn rate to Re 19 in my "old" loads and got similar results. About 3000 fps or a little over was about the limit with the 22 Sav.HP bullet, regarding decent accuracy. Remind me which cases you were using. My cases were rimmed 30-06 and they also bulged at the head. But the bulge is ahead of the solid web in the cases, and was not caused by excess pressure. Instead it was caused by the head diameter of my cases being smaller than the chamber. Since, for this cartridge, I use the correct dies, the bulge is a "one time" thing and I don't consider it too serious. If the dies sized the bulge out with every firing, it would likely lead to head separations. If your cases have 06 or 7x65/9.3x74R case head diameter, I wouldn't worry too much about the bulge. BTW my newer loads using bullets "bumped up" from heavy .224 bullets allows an additional 250 fps, using a slower powder. For what it is worth, I have been "playing" with a different case, that has very near the correct head diameter. If they work out, I will report on them in "WAIDMANNSHEIL".
Mike

[Diz]

wernerhelm,

Glad to hear you finally got to shoot it. I checked the load against my program just to see what it came up with. 45-46 grains only show a bit over 42,000 psi so these loads should be OK. The question I have is I am assuming the cases are reworked -06 and this may be where the bulge is coming from. Mike is right about the -06 case is at least .007" smaller than the vH in the head and they will always expand just down to the web. So if possible it would be good to see a close up picture of one of the bulges in the fired cases. I also know that you had to push the shoulder back a bit more than usual to get them to chamber so if possible weigh an empty case with the primer than fill it to overflowing and weigh it again and send me the difference. I can plug that into the program and get a more accurate picture of what is happening.

Hope to hear more. Thanks, Diz

[wernerhelm]

Mike and Diz, I appreciate you sharing with me and my reloader all of your information and advice on the vH. We formed the cases out of 25-06 rimless cases. When fire formed, the cases looked very close to factory produced brass-- most of the dents disappeared. we will weight the cases and fill them up and weigh again as requested by Diz and will post that info up. here is a pic of the bulge.

IMG_8552 (1).jpg

[wernerhelm]

Mike and Diz, I appreciate you sharing with me and my reloader all of your information and advice on the vH. We formed the cases out of 25-06 rimless cases. When fire formed, the cases looked very close to factory produced brass-- most of the dents disappeared. we will weight the cases and fill them up and weigh again as requested by Diz and will post that info up. here is a pic of the bulge.

IMG_8552 (1).jpg

[Diz]

wernerhelm,

That's a great picture of the classic bulge. This is exactly what Mike and I were talking about or at least what I have seen from my own experience with using 25-06 cases. Mike had a great solution for centering the case with a thin wrap of cellophane tape around the head just below where the bulge forms. I had the same trouble until he told me this trick. The bulge is entirely normal because of the differences in the head diameters and the tape centers the head so the expansion is even. It helped accuracy in my rifle as well. This is good news too and you are basically past all the hard stuff. Hopefully your die was made to vH spec so that it will not size the base back in to the '06 diameter.

Once you have the water weight I will be able to run some more accurate numbers and let you know.

Thanks, Diz

[Diz]

I have had all the fun I need with mine and was thinking there may be others that would enjoy the (crazy) adventure of owning and shooting a 5.6x61 vH SE. This one is on Gun Broker and listed as a Greifelt Co. Suhl. The item number is 580938098. It's been quite a few years since I have seen one advertised and there are also 20 Horneber cases listed in another section. Searching Vom Hofe on Gun Broker will bring up both. Nice looking rifle.

Thanks, Diz

[wernerhelm]

I have more range results:
N-570 powder, 50 grains-- 77 Sierra tipped match kings-- Thanks to Diz for his generous contribution of 20 swaged up .224 TMK's-- 4 shots registered at 2875, 2948, 2863, and 3017 fps
total Case capacity was 51 grains, but we backed it down to 50 grains.
I also utilized the tape trick that Mike and Diz suggested and the brass is looking great.
I will be going deer hunting the first weekend in November near LLano TX and I plan on using it.
Thanks again for all of the good information and advice and input!

[Diz]

wernerhelm,

Excellent work! Those numbers don't look bad at all and I would suspect they could be improved after reloading the fireformed cases especially the SD. Best of luck on your hunt and perhaps there is a St. Hubertus award waiting for you.

Waidmannsheil! Diz

[Nathaniel Myers]

wernerhelm and or Diz,

I have followed this and a couple other threads on the 5.6 vH, and may have missed this. What is the expected velocities? I had read somewhere the original "advertised" was 4000 fps? Is that correct?

Has anyone pushed and achieved near that goal?

I inquire, not to be critical in anyway, but I have friends who shoot 75 gr 223's at 3000 fps.

I please, please, please hope you don't take that the wrong way, this isn't about comparable performance. I merely state that as it seems like 3000 fps is barely stretching its legs. New loads, new rifle, new brass, I understand, I am more just curios of the capability.

[Diz]

Nathaniel,

No offense taken at all. I have been experimenting with this cartridge for years and just about everything I know about it I posted on a thread I started back in February of 2015 called "Gehmann-Konstanz 5.6 x 61 vom Hofe". At that time I used the name "Collath" but changed it to Diz out of respect. There is an amazing amount of feedback in that post from others with experience and I think it would be worth wadding through it. Axel posted that the vH was advertised at 3700fps. I fired some DMW 77 grain factory ammo and saw 3550 fps. I used Hodgdon H-870 for my initial loads and believe this is what DMW used as well. This powder has been off the market for some time now and I had to look for alternatives. My current loading is about one grain under filling the case without compressing the powder and the pressure is still safe by a nice margin. My velocity average was 3457 fps out of my rifle with a 26 inch barrel. I think another 100 fps could be reached without much trouble but huge doses of very slow powder and high velocity make for short barrel life so I put it away.

I don't want to answer for wernerhelm but the chamber in his rifle appears to be somewhat short and case capacity reduced. In spite of that he is very near 3000 fps in cases that had not been fire formed previously.

The major problem is trying to find a bullet that can take the velocity that these guns are capable of without disintegrating. Mike mentioned a problem with his rimmed version exploding bullets. I swage my own using heavy jackets or for my last load bumped up a Sierra 77 grain Match King Tipped that has a very stout jacket to begin with. These are the bullets wernerhelm used in his last trial.

Sorry I've run on rather long. Check that other post. I think you will find it very informative and if you have a question please just ask.

Thanks, Diz

[wernerhelm]

Thanks Diz for the comments-- If i am lucky or fortunate enough to get a deer with it it will be posted on here for sure.. Nathaniel-- no offense taken at all. I've seen some published data that RWS factory loads back in the day would approach 3700 but were thought to be optimistic numbers. I'll let Diz and others that have had their 5.6's shooting for a good while comment on its capability as I am in the "infancy" stage with mine. I'm just pleased that I've finally got to the load development point(with the help of fellow forum members)! Their knowledge on this cartridge and their reloading advice sped my process up for sure!