Help - V. CHR SCHILLING 10.75x63 (Pics)

[Herbert]

Looking for help about information on an old Mauser by Schilling. The caliber is marked as 10.75x63. I have been told that ammo is not available. Bore is in mint condition and I am assuming the gun has been shot very little due to unavailability of ammo.

Any information about this rifle, maker or caliber will be appreciated. Did Schilling make a lot of these rifles? I have seen some military rifles with his name on the internet.

I have been told that this rifle can be re-chambered to 10.75x68 for which reloading components are available, even .404 Jeffery is a possibility as the bore is the same for all of them. Any advise will be helpful.

I am also posting the markings on the rifle if that helps to get more information or date this gun.











Thanks in advance
Herbert

[Herbert]

Some additional photos...

[Herbert]

More photos...

[Herbert]

More photos...

[sharps4590]

Truly a beautiful old Mauser. Being very much a disciple of Ross Seyfried's mantra, "alter the ammo, not the rifle", for a rifle of that era and in that condition there is no way I'd consider re-chambering it. Cases aren't that difficult to make from 10.75 X 68 brass. As with vintage cars they're only original once and there is getting to be fewer and fewer nice originals.

I would think that rifle truly in the collector class and any alteration will devalue it. However, it is your rifle and as such subject to what you want to do with it.

[Axel E]

The rifle was made by the ancient Suhl gunmaker Valentin Christian Schilling, founded 1816. During the 1800s V.C.S., together with other Suhl companies, made lots of military rifles, from muzzleloaders to M88 carbines, for various German states and foreign armies. The last big military orders were for M88 carbines. V.C.S. , like Haenel, also made hunting rifles on M88 actions. When the 98 Mauser action was adopted, V.C.S. was without military ordersand the company was on the way down. 1904 to 1913 V.C.S. was run by Albert, Moritz and Walter Schilling. In 1914 the factory buildings at Rimbachstr. 37 were sold, first to a Dr. Metz, finally to Sempert & Krieghoff in 1919. In 1920 the V.C.Schilling retail shop, name and goodwill was sold to Ludwig Bornhöft, who continued offering guns with the VCS trademark to 1939.
Your VCS rifle was apparently made on a Mauser, Oberndorf, commercial action, guessing from the shape of the bolt handle. If so, there should be Mauser's serial numbers under the receiver, just behind the recoil lug, and on the rear wall of the magazine box. Such numbers would allow dating the action more closely.The barrel was supplied by the well known Suhl barrelmaker W.K., Wilhelm Kelber, then Truebenbachstr.1.
As the bore/land diameter given as 10.3 mm shows, the rifle was proofed 1912 to 1922, most likely 12 – 14.
The 10.75x63 was the predecessor of the 10.75x68. Apparently it was introduced by the Vienna gunmaker Johann Kaletzky's Widow about 1906. At least my own barrel was Vienna proofed that year. The 10.75x68 was normalized by Mauser in 1909 and quickly superseded the shorter case. According to a 1920s Steigleder catalog the then load was a 347 gr jacketed bullet in front of 58.6 gr R5 flake powder for 2130 fps. The same load was offered as a "weak" load for European brush use in the 10.75x68.
Years ago a barreled action in 10.75x63, signed by Kaletzky, was given to me by our friend Flintenkalle, who found it in a Ferlach attic. I stocked it, mounted a Timney trigger and Lyman peep sight. There is a side mount with a 2 ½ Nickel scope too. Here it is, second from top:

Maybe I am the only member who has loaded the 10.75x63. The only difference to the x68 is the neck length. diameters, shoulder and cartridge over all length are all the same. I use standard 10.75x68 RCBS dies for sizing and loading. Ok, I can not crimp using these dies. Most often I use some original RWS 10.75x68 cases, shortened 5 mm = .2" to 63 mm. I also made cases from 9.3x64 Brenneke brass by slight swaging and turning the bases + necking up and fireforming. As 9.3x64 brass is more readily available, sometimes for free, here in Germany than 10.75x 68, I refrained from rechambering and reproofing the barrel. I shot a few boar and roe deer using expensive 350 gr Woodleigh bullets in front of 55 gr VV N140. As I use the Rifle as a "fun rifle" most often, my standard load consists of a 300gr .44 Hornady or Sierra jacketed pistol bullet, sized down in a home made die to .423", in front of 60 gr N140, mv about 2400fps. This load is still just as powerfull as the venerable .405 Winchester.Here such a 10.75x63 handload with a sized down 300 gr Sierra bullet is shown above a 10.75x68 old Kynoch factory load.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Very informative , your techniques in handloading for this cartridge would apply to others, as well. Such techniques can save other fine old rifles from careless( maybe dangerous) modification.
Mike

[Axel E]

Herbert, as sharps4590 wrote, it is your rifle and you may do with it what you want. You may have it rechambered to10.75x68, but this would scarcely lessen your ammo problems. AFAIK the 10.75x68 is not offered by any commercial maker any more, so it is a pure handloading proposition too. It uses an unique case hard to make from anything readily available. As I wrote, you can use 9.3x64 brass for the x63 in a pinch, but not for the x68.
I strongly advise against rechambering to the .404 Jeffery! The bullet diameter may be the same, but nothing else fits. You will have to open up action and bolt face. The magazine has to be lengthened. By reaming the larger diameter .404 chamber into that slim octagonal barrel, you will seriously reduce wall thickness over the chamber. This wall thickness apparently is already marginal for the 10.75x63 and x68, which use thicker cases than the standard 8x57 – 30-06 diameter, but still much slimmer than the .404. Even if the opened up action and the then thin-walled barrel stand the pressure of the .404, you will have a rifle far too light for such a dangerous game cartridge, using 400 gr bullets at 2300 fps. Just compare your slim, classic German style rifle to any "name" rifle originally made for cartridges in the .404, .416 class. Even if the recoil of the .404 does not smash the beautiful old stock to splinters, it will certainly wreck your shoulder and face.

[mike ford]

Herbert,
I believe you can make cases by turning the belt off several different belted magnum cases, and deepening the extractor groove(maybe). The 7mm Rem. Mag. would seem to be long enough for 10.75x63, but since it must be expanded so much, I believe the longer 300 Win. would be a better starting point. Both should be more available, once fired, than any of the longer Magnum cases. As for bullets, I can't think of a better solution than the one Axel uses.
Mike

[algmule]

Herbert,
not that it´ll add anything of significance but an H. Burgsmüller & Söhne-catalogue has the following to say on the 10.75x63: "Patrone G63, Kal 10.75 mm, ohne Rand, mit ? verschiedenen Mantelgeschossen, mit 3,5 bezw 4 g Blättchenpulver"

Also, I found a 10.75x62 cartridge in a G.C. Dornheim-catalogue from 1933 (also in Genschow 1932-catalogue). Does anyone know anything on this cartridge? There seems to have been a nomination 10.7x62.7 Le Personne as well.

By the way, that is one beautiful rifle you have there, Herbert.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

Also, I found a 10.75x62 cartridge in a G.C. Dornheim-catalogue from 1933 (also in Genschow 1932-catalogue). Does anyone know anything on this cartridge? There seems to have been a nomination 10.7x62.7 Le Personne as well.

These were just other names for the 10.75x63. Remember, case designations were standardized from the 1920s only, finally in 1940. As the DWM case book lists their 10.75x63 case number 515 with the note "made for Le Personne" in 1908, many cartridge collectors think Le Personne to be the inventor of this cartridge. But that "Le Personne" entry dates at least two years after Kaletzky, Vienna, offered the 10.75x63. Additionally, Le Personne & Co., London, was an international arms dealer. Such persons rarely invent cartridges. Besides, the 1911 ALFA catalog shows the 10.75x63 with the designation "G63-10.75 oh.Rd.No OE-25". oh.Rd. is Ohne Rand = rimless, while OE certainly hints to the Oesterreichische = Austrian origin. See my article "Some thoughts on Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridges…" in Waidmannsheil! #57 .

[Herbert]

Thank you everyone for the help and all the information.

Axel - Really appreciate the information about the reloading. I am very happy that there are some options to shoot this gun. It would be a pity to relegate it to the back of the safe. The re-chambering was only a last resort but your post makes it clear that both 10.75x68 and .404 comes with its own set of complications.

I also looked at the receiver behind the magazine box and did not find any serial numbers.

I saw a marking as "22gr", any ides what that is ? my 9.3x62 by Barella is marked "18gr".

[Axel E]

I saw a marking as "22gr", any ides what that is ? my 9.3x62 by Barella is marked "18gr".

It is the weight of the St.m.G = Stahlmantelgeschoss = steel jacket bullet the rifle was proofed for, 22 gramm = 340 grains. Your Barella was proofed for the common 9.3x62 steel jacketed bullet, 18 gramm = 278 grains. Both weights conveniently rounded off to full gramms from 22.5 gramm = 347 gr and 18.5 gramm = 285 gr.

[Diz]

Herbert,
First let me say that is a very fine looking rifle you have and I myself would do everything I could to shoot it with the correct cartridge. Axel mentions making the 10.75 x 63 case out of the 9.3 x 64 Brenneke and the 10.75 x 68. I am not sure where you live but both of these cases are listed by Huntington Die Specialist as available. The 9.3 Brenneke is made by Bertram and the 10.75 x 64 by Jamison. Jamison had been getting a bad reputation for a while but lately their brass has been excellent.

I believe the 10.75 x 63 can also be made from a .375 H&H or a .458 Win case. The Winchester may be easier as it is very near the correct length. You would have to trim off the belt and reduce the rim diameter then recut the extractor groove. Not very difficult operations. Anneal the neck then full size and trim if necessary. I would check the neck thickness to be sure you have release clearance. Axels load recommendations would be a good place to start with a little reduction.

Thanks for sharing it and good luck, Diz

[Herbert]

Thank you Axel & Diz for the information, appreciate it.

Guess what, I just found that http://www.qual-cart.com/Custom%20Headstamp.htm is selling head stamped brass for 10.75x63, it is listed in their products/catalog.