Unknown Drilling

[mikecrawdad]

KernerCart.pdfMy name is Michael Crawford.

This drilling has no makers name. I refer to it as Drilling B and it appears to be well used. The engraving is a few scrowls with a lot of squiggly lines. You have to manually raise the rifle sight.The action works fine and it locks up tightly. The bores are brown.
Can anyone tell me anything about the gun?
The caliber appears to be 8x58.5. What can I shoot in it? Is it a Mauser cartridge?

Thanks in advance.

[Axel E]

A clear photo of the proofmarks under the rifle barrel would help in both dating the gun, finding out about the make and the chambering. Certainly not a Mauser cartridge, As you mention 8 mm and 58 1/2, it's probably in 8x58R Sauer & Sohn, a long obsolete smokeless cartridge. Power about like the .30-30.

[mike ford]

Mike,
When, I answered your other post, concerning the Emil Kerner, I spoke to the 8x58R S&S not realizing it should have been here. I agree with both of Axel's comments.
Mike

[skippy6]

hey..mikes brother skip here.......i worked over his pix a little and they are here to view..... http://www.auntskip.com/mikesdrilling.htm

[skippy6]

both of mikes drillings....the unfired safe queen and the well used one...2 sets of pix

[mike ford]

skippy6,
Thanks for the effort, it was helpful. However, your best efforts couldn't change the angles of the photos, so there are still some things I can't make out. Both seem to be chambered for 8X58R S&S, so Axel's and my comments concerning this cartridge apply to both guns. Both guns seem to have the word Nitro in block letters, which would mean they were proofed( therefore likely made in or near)in Suhl. If a closer examination of the "worn one" actually shows script letters, then it would have been proofed in Zella-Mehlis. The Kerner was reported to be "unfired"( therefore "as new"?).I have grave reservations about this, however. Absent a personal "hands on" examination I can't say for sure, but I think the barrels have been reblued. The words "Emil Kerner" seem to have the letters washed out by machine polishing. The other markings don't show this so much. This can be explained by the fact that these marks are hidden, therefore both protected and wouldn't receive as much polishing. Both are chambered for 16ga 65mm( 2 1/2-2 9/16") shells, and seem to carry the typical proof marks. I would still like to see better photos, It would help if the normally polished areas under the barrels and around the locking lugs were brightened up. I wonder if Axel or anyone else agrees about the reblueing, or if I'm entirely wrong.
Mike

[mikecrawdad]

Mr. Ford:

Right-clicking on the JPGs on my brother's site, and then downloading them to you computer will allow you to “zoom” in and see the markings more clearly- at least that works for me.

Relative to the Kerner: The stamping for the caliber reads 7.7 58 ½. I made measurements from the chamber casting and show them on the PDF I just uploaded. They are remarkably close to the measurements for the 8X58R Sauer and Sohn. When I was thinking about the purported nearly-unfired condition of the gun, I was looking mostly at the bores. The shotgun bores are very bright, but the rifle bore seems to show some use. The stamping for the “Emil Kerner” is quite crisp, as is the “Krupp Stahl”. The fault is in the bad focus on the photo. I can't detect a difference in the blueing under the forearm or around the lugs, however there is a difference in the hue of the blueing for the shotgun barrels and the rifle barrel, which has a purplish cast to it. Both guns have the “Nitro” proofing.
I have owned many fine old guns- Sharps, Ballards, Maynards, Stevens, Ruger No. 1, etc. but I have never owned anything as finely made as this Kerner.

Relative to the unknown drilling: I am very curious as to why there is no gunmaker's name stamped. After the 8 58 ½ are two letters that appear to be script SS. I am thinking that is for Sauer and Sohn. It would be great to use the same cartridges in both drillings. I have done some repairs on this arm. I had to strengthen the rebounding spring on the right shotgun firing pin and the sear for the set trigger wouldn't hold. I have still to replace the sling swivel post on the buttstock. It is my hope that I can find dies for the 8X58R SS and make some cartridges. I will be looking for some light loads for these old rifle barrels.

Any further thoughts on these arms would be appreciated.

Mike Crawford

[sharps4590]

These should be the dies. It would be best to slug the bore, if you haven't already, to make certain the expander button Dave uses will work. If not he can make the correct button.

http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/ca...&filter=8+X+58

Somewhere I recently read an article on the 8 X 58 S&S. I will try to remember where and post it.

[mike ford]

Mike,
Very many guns were made "for the trade", which means they were sold to other dealers that then retailed them to the public. Sometimes the dealers put their name on the gun, and sometimes not. If there is no name, they are often incorrectly called "Guild Guns". I load cartridges similar to the 8x58R S&S with 8x57 dies, by removing the expander plug. I first fireform the cases, after FL sizing them in a 32-40 Win. file/trim die. The 8x57 die then functions as a neck sizing die. Also the factory bullet is .318, but many rifles will accept .320-.321" 32 Win. Spec. Bullets. if a .321" bullet will fit into a case fired in your chamber, then you can use it. You will need to keep the cases for each rifle separate, however. The "purplish" color likely comes from the difference in steel, between the rifle and shot barrels.
Mike

[mikecrawdad]

Thanks for pointing me to that site.
Mike Crawford