Hello new member here and thanks.

[50bigblock]

Hello. Have many questions. I hope you guys can help me out here. Not sure my questions should be posted here. Trying to get information on a 8x51 model 21. The name on barrel is R. Bessel & Sohn sagan. And the word bessosa on the load door. Have no idea what I have here. Any information would deeply be appreciated.

[mike ford]

50bigblock,
Welcome, we are glad to have you.There is little doubt that you can find help here, but you will need to post photos of the gun, including all markings. To find the proofmarks it will be necessary to take the rifle apart and look under the barrel.The cartridge it seems to be chambered for has a 8mm bullet and a 51mm long case.Except for bullet diameter it is reminiscent of the 308 Win, and was most often used in "short action" rifles.
Mike

[50bigblock]

Hey thanks for the reply. I have looked around on here very little and trying to figure out how to post pictures. In time I will figure it out.

[50bigblock]

Proof marks are as follows..a crown with a cross over top with the letter N under it. Other markings is a 1 1/2. A 13 gr.and appears to be m.G. these markings are to the left of the barrel were the 8x51.serial no. 40438. I've tried to put pictures on here but can't figure it out.

[mike ford]

50bigblock,
It is difficult to give good information w/o good photos. From your original post,mentioning mod21, I thought it was likely a Schmidt & Habermann mod 21. They were chambered for short cartridges like the 8x51. If true, the R. Bessel would have been a retailer. Absent photos, I can't confirm this. The 13 gr and "m.G." ,though incomplete, indicates it was intended to use a 13gram(about 200 gr) with either a steel (St.m.G) or Copper(K.m.G) jacket. For this cartridge, it would most likely be steel. From your discription of the markings, I am starting to think it may have been reblued, with some markings being polished out in the process.

[Axel E]

The rifle was retailed by Robert Bessel, Sagan, Silesia, since 1945 Zagan in western Poland. Gunmaker to the Royal Bulgarian Court and to Prince Friedrich Sigismund of Prussia, 1913.
The short action Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl, Modell 21 was made during the 1920s only. It was originally chambered for the 6.5x54 K Mauser, the 8x51 Mauser and the short lived, proprietary 7x54. E. Schmidt & Habermann, Roschstrasse 1, Suhl, TM ESHA, 1858 – 1945, was predominantly a "gunmaker to the trade". Many guns signed by famous name gunmakers like Barella, Geyger, Peterlongo, Miller & Greiss were actually made for them by ESHA. All the famous pre-war "Original Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig" rifles bear the tiny esha mark in a hidden place and have Schmidt & Habermann serial numbers.
This photo shows the distinctive half-cock safety of the M21.

Here are my two M 21s. The first one is an 6.5x54 Mauser, claw mounted with a 2 ½", 7/8" Zeiss "Zielmi" scope.

The second I bought two weeks ago through egun internet auction at Euro 176.-. This is what it looks like after some hours and a week of stock refinishing. Unfortunately, the action was opened up, rechambered and duly reproofed February 1965 to 7x57 because of unavailability of 7x54 ammo. As those 26 mm steel tube 4x Zeiss "Zielvier" (without a rifle hanging underneath) usually go for Euro 250.- to 380.- on ebay over here, it was an opportunity I could not resist.

Does your rifle resemble these?
As to "value": Schmidt & Habermann are much rarer than commercial Kurz Mausers. Everyone has at least heard about the famous Mausers, so they are in high demand and command high prices. Esha M21s are virtually unknown. So there is little demand, resulting in much lower prices.

[algmule]

50bigblock,
It won´t help you as regards your rifle but here´s an ad from R. Bessel & Sohn
RBessel&SohnSaganDieVossBerlin1922-12-23p14.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[50bigblock]

1441106691500.jpg pictures

[50bigblock]

Thanks. I finally figured the pictures out. And thanks for all the information. This gun also came with the original case hard leather needs to be repaired but has a gold emblem marking on end.

[50bigblock]

Also ammo if read a forum stating that the 8x51 is the same as an 8x50r lebel rounds by Yugoslavia. Any truth to that info?

[50bigblock]

If the ammo is usable in this gun 23.00 for box of 20. New brass.

[Axel E]

No way!! The 8x51R French Lebel offered by PRVI Partizan or the 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher are rimmed cartridges with a big base diameter. They would be just as unuseable like .308 Winchester ammo is in your .30-30 Winchester 94. Your Schmidt & Habermann m21 takes the 8x51 Kurz Mauser, a rimless case with a "standard" base diameter. Only DWM offered it in the 1930s. As this cartridge is out of print since 1945, handloading is the only option. .308 Winchester brass may be reformed. The cartridge used .318" bullets. DWM advertized these ballisics in 1934:
10.2 gramm = 157 gr steel jacketed bullet at 2150 fps or
12.7 gramm = 196 gr steel jacketed bullet at 2100 fps,

[50bigblock]

Well the truth comes out. Thanks so much for that info. thats what I've been trying to find out. I'm a rookie. Trying to learn.

[Axel E]

Obviously E.Schmidt & Habermann stocked your rifle to R.Bessel's special order. "Stutzen" full stock with Suhl style oval panels, foreend fastened to barrel with cross key. ESHA most often built the guns to the design and "house style" of the "Name" retailers who ordered them.

[50bigblock]

So it has very little value. It's a neat rifle.