New to Drillings Need Help

[Robadams]

Hello, All.

This is my first post. I am new to Drillings and need some guidance. I am trading a Springfield for a drilling and have a choice of two guns (can't afford both). One is an over under, Engelbert, that is profusely engraved, with very fine checkering and fancy wood. The top barrel is a 16 ga. 2 1/2", with an 8x57r 360, bottom barrel. Also, an under lever, with engraved claw mounts and tip up tang peep sight.

The second one is a 16 ga. S x S, with 9.3 72r bottom barrel. It is unnamed, with Krupps Nitro barrels. It is also fully engraved, with very nice striped wood and horn trigger guard. It has a four cartridge holder in the butt. It has a trace of looseness on face, that can't be felt with the forearm in place.

It appears that 9.3 is readily available, but the 8x57r 360, has to be custom made. (105.00 - 20).

Your input and advice is welcome. This is a hard choice. They are both very appealing. I am leaning toward the over under.
Thanks,
Rob

[Axel E]

It appears that 9.3 is readily available, but the 8x57r 360, has to be custom made. (105.00 - 20).

Caution! apparently you confuse the indeed "readily available" nitro 9.3x74R and the older, slimmer and much less powerful, essentially "nitro for black" 9.3x72R. That drilling is most likely chamberd for the latter. These cartridges are not interchangeable. While the x74R is indeed readily available, offered by Hornady, Norma, RWS and others, the x72R is only sometimes availble here in Europe from Sellier & Bellot. Both the 8x57R360 and the 9.3x72R are mostly to be handloaded. AFAIK the 8x57R360 cases may be formed from .38-55 brass, the longer 9.3x72R poses a real problem in the USA. Mike Ford may give further advice as to availability in the USA.

[sharps4590]

A few months ago I bought a couple boxes of 9.3 X 72R Norma brass from Buffalo Arms and I believe the ad mentioned "ample stock". I don't recall the exact price so it must not have been too expensive or I would have remembered!!! I believe Sellier & Belloit offer it as loaded ammo here but that needs to be confirmed. I want to say the 8 X 57R/360 is easily formed and I think Axel is correct about the 38-55 except for possibly case length. As Axel mentioned, I know Mike has that answer....as well as about any others. Neither cartridge is a barn burner but certainly adequate for whitetail if used judiciously.

If the O/U has only two barrels it is not a drilling. Over here, the US, it's generally called a combination gun. I never can keep straight the German identification for the various barrel configurations and can't quickly find it so I'll leave that to others.

Depending on how loose the drilling is that would probably be my choice simply due to preference of appearance. That and I'm kinda funny about claw bases without the rings...which are expensive to have made. The hinge pin can be replaced to put it back on face, if necessary, but I don't know how expensive that work is. 2 1/2 in. shells are readily available or can be easily made from regular 2 3/4 hulls then loaded and roll crimped.

[Robadams]

Thanks for your input. Ammo To Go has the 9.3x72r, but it's not cheap. $80.00, by the time you add shipping. I use Vintager shotgun shells, from Polywad, Inc. Very nice people, reasonable pricing and quick shipping. They stock shells, 2 inches and up.
Also, thanks for setting me straight on the difference between a drilling and a combination gun. The looseness in the drilling is so minor, I don't even think my next of kin will have to fix it. I probably won't shoot the rifle that much, but would like to have a box of ammo for either. I do shoot trap with older guns, so that appeals to me.
Gosh, after nearly 55 years of being in the gun hobby, I've only just now come to realize how beautiful and special these German guns are. Unfortunately, my budget will only allow me to acquire one, but if I could, I'd have both of them.
Thanks, again
Rob

A few months ago I bought a couple boxes of 9.3 X 72R Norma brass from Buffalo Arms and I believe the ad mentioned "ample stock". I don't recall the exact price so it must not have been too expensive or I would have remembered!!! I believe Sellier & Belloit offer it as loaded ammo here but that needs to be confirmed. I want to say the 8 X 57R/360 is easily formed and I think Axel is correct about the 38-55 except for possibly case length. As Axel mentioned, I know Mike has that answer....as well as about any others. Neither cartridge is a barn burner but certainly adequate for whitetail if used judiciously.

If the O/U has only two barrels it is not a drilling. Over here, the US, it's generally called a combination gun. I never can keep straight the German identification for the various barrel configurations and can't quickly find it so I'll leave that to others.

Depending on how loose the drilling is that would probably be my choice simply due to preference of appearance. That and I'm kinda funny about claw bases without the rings...which are expensive to have made. The hinge pin can be replaced to put it back on face, if necessary, but I don't know how expensive that work is. 2 1/2 in. shells are readily available or can be easily made from regular 2 3/4 hulls then loaded and roll crimped.

[mike ford]

Rob,
My advice it to get the one you like the best, with the caveat that the drilling would be most practical in the near future. There are several sources of S&B 9.3x72R ammo in the US. It is usually listed for $70-$80 per box, plus shipping, as you found.Axel's concern that it may be 9.3x74R is worth thinking about, if you get the gun.It is easy to check, if the case length is not marked, the 72R case head dia, is close to 30-30(rim a little larger than the 9,3) and the headsize of the 74R is close to 30-06/270, etc. You can just compare the chamber to a 30-30 or 06 case.I shoot a 8x57R/360, myself, and as stated above, it is a handloading exercise. This is a fun, useful extension to our hobby, not something to be afraid of anyway. In my loading, I use original berdan primed cases, but made cases from original length 38-55 cases to be sure it would work. It works fine, by seating the bullet"out" to the correct overall length. The original ammo was loaded with .318"diameter bullets,which are avaliable from some sources.Also, some rifles can use 32 Win. Spec. bullets(.321"). This is easy to check, but it is important to do so. Maybe you can find your wife a second job and get both of them( get her to pay the bills, and you buy the guns, otherwise, she may claim them).Let us know how that idea works out.BTW, 9.3x72R is also fun to load for,
Mike

[John]

Not to muddy the waters, but although S&B 9.3x72R is readily available (and expensive), it should be mentioned that it may be a little too much for the older black-powder drillings. Not to mention the dimensional variations in the case, rim thickness, bullet diameter, etc. of the various iterations of this cartridge... Although the drilling is said to have nitro barrels, it's common to see that only the shotgun barrels bear the Crown N stamp/proof.

I have a 16x16, over 9.3 x 72R drilling, and it is my favorite gun ! Get it !

[mike ford]

Rob,
The dimensional variations John mentioned are because of at least 4 versions of 9.3x72R. The "E" or English version, the "D" or German version,and the "N"(Normalized)or standardized version. The 4th is 9.3x72R Sauer and Son, which is an entirely different case, very much like 9.3x74R(but with shorter case and lighter bullet).Within the first 3 basic versions,there may be some variations also. The "N" version was made to chamber is as many of the other versions as possible(except the S&S). It does a good job at this and works with most of them, except a few "D" versions.One of the few rechambering jobs I can reccomend is from the "D" version to the "N" version. The currently avaliable ammo is the "N" version, loaded with a special bullet to be safe in varyious barrel diameters. Don't let this scare you off, ammo can be made for any of them, even black powder.
Mike

[Axel E]

the drilling is said to have nitro barrels, it's common to see that only the shotgun barrels bear the Crown N stamp/proof.

The Nitro mark on shot barrels was introduced in 1912, 3 years after the 9.3x72R case and chamber dimensions were normalised, so the "modern" S&B loads should fit. As I wrote above, the 9.3x72R is essentially a "Nitro for Black" cartridge. Factory cartridges are loaded to blackpowder pressures only. CIP max pressure is 2000 bar = 29000 psi only. Less than the .38-55, rated by CIP at 2400 bar = 34800 psi and the .45-70 at 2200 bar = 31900 psi.

[Robadams]

Wow! That is a ton of information. Thank you, all. The drilling has an empty 9.3x72r case in the butt, cartridge holder. I'm giving up an 1884 Springfield Trapdoor, to do this trade and make matters more complicated a third gun has been offered. It is a Greif single shot, break open, Mannlicher style, in 7x57r. It is fully engraved, with set trigger and horn trigger guard. It has a detachable scope mount. I think it is probably a great hunting rifle, but I am limited to target shooting. It's a beautiful little rifle, but not for me. I'm going to take the drilling and the combination gun to the range tomorrow and shoot trap with them. Should be interesting and fun.

[sharps4590]

The drilling might lock up tighter when loaded. You'll certainly know today. That Greif sounds like a charmer.

[John]

Does the presence of the nitro proofs (post 1912) on the shot barrels assure that the rifle barrel is of the same "age?"

In my case, I have a top lever drilling which has BP proofs on the rifle barrel (proofed in 1904 and 1905), has the typical proofs on the barrel flats of the shot barrels (Crown S, U and W), yet also has the tiny Crown N proof (with powder & shot charge weight) on the shot barrels (visible with the action closed - these proofs are not on the barrel flats). My guess is that my gun had the shot barrels re-proofed for nitro at least 7 or 8 years after the gun was made. As a result, the chambering of the rifle barrel may not be the normalized version of 9.3x72R.

Regardless, I am intrigued that S&B ammo may not blow up my gun !

Although I read what you plainly wrote Axel, do you still contend that the modern S&B ammo (if it chambers in my gun) will be safe in my black powder proofed (118.35 gauged) drilling barrel ? (If it matters, the bore has very narrow lands & broad grooves, with a twist of one turn in 22" - if my memory serves...)

Please share your opinion.

Many thanks !

(PS: It looks like CIP pressures are slightly higher than SAAMI here in the US. I didn't realize that.)

[mike ford]

John,
Axel uses data from current CIP sources that measure pressures with a transducer, whereas the older SAAMI pressures were measured with copper crusher. Now older pressure measurments are listed as psi cup, and do not match the current system, which usually shows a higher number; but not always, so a "conversion factor" is not possible.
Rob,
The 7x57R sounds like a really nice rifle. It is one of my favorite calibers, and my favorite action type.You are lucky to be near that dealer, you should get all three. If your wife won't take a second job, maybe you can sell her car and get the 7x57R.
Mike

[mike ford]

Rob,
What is the status of the trade?, We wait with bated breath.
Mike