New guy with german pin fire

[wayne goerres]

My name is Wayne and I have a newly acquired pin fire cape gun. The gun is German and it is chambered in 20ga by 58ca?. It has no proof marks what so ever. I am interested in finding out something about the maker and approximately when it was built. I will attempt to post pictures. I also have one other question. I may try to shoot this gun. I shoot a 16ga double in a pin fire so I can already load for the shot gun side of the gun. My question has to do with the rifle side of the gun. It is a .577 bore4 and the case size appears to be 1 1/2". Kind of looks like a short 577 Snyder. Is there anyone out there that is familiar with this cartridge. This gun appears to be unfired. Is the value on these guns enough to keep it unfired or can I just go ahead and shoot it and enjoy it. Thanks in advance for any help.

[collath]

Wayne, that's a nice looking piece and it would be a shame not to shoot it occasionally. There was a cartridge called a .58 Berdan that had a case length of about 1.7" with around .579 dia bullet but I wouldn't want to guess what your's is. Your best bet is get a good chamber casting and carefully measure it up. I usually have my Damascus barrels x-ray'd before I shoot them as a precaution.

[wayne goerres]

I had forgotten about that cartridge. I beleave it is listed in Cartridges Of The World. I will have to dig out my copy and see. I haven't poured a chamber cast yet. My barrels don't have the Damascus pattern like some of the Parker I have or the other guns I have for that matter. Do you know what they call the pattern on these barrels.

[collath]

Wayne,

It's not very well known but could be made from .500 nitro brass although that may be pricey. The pattern looks to me like "Crolle" and could be a "three iron" pattern but it is hard to tell. I am sure there are members that know better than I. The name on the rib looks to be Jung & Sohne Suhl so I am surprised that there are no proofs. You may want to check the site "Damascus Knowledge" for some info on patterns with pictures. Good luck.

[collath]

Wayne, sorry I should have said make from .577 N.E. and that will be pricey.

[wayne goerres]

I checked the info on 58 Berdan . I don't be-leave that's it. I think the brass can be made from 24ga brass. I am going to order some Magtech and start with it. Lee has a .577 mold that looks like it might work and it is cheap enough to try. I really hate lee molds (oh well). German proof laws were enacted late. From what I have read they did not start proofing guns until 1891. I be-leave this gun was made around 1860 to 1865. Sure thought someone would recognize the name and chime in. I spent several hours last night looking for info but had no luck. I see your from Penn. Are you buried in snow.

[mike ford]

Wayne,
I can't make out the initials for sure, but it looks like TP(?) JUNG and SON in SUHL.If I'm wrong, someone will correct me. The 1891 proof law was not actually implemented until Mar.1893,so proofs didn't start until then. I think you will find the cartridge is a 24 bore(ga) bulleted cartridge.Magtech cases should work fine.
Mike

[wayne goerres]

I thought it might be Johann Frederic Young (English translation). I will try goggling T P and see what comes up.

[algmule]

..........

[wayne goerres]

Mike where you at in eastern alabama. I am in Lagrange Ga.

[collath]

Wayne, I don't know enough about these guns but a 24 bore would seem to me as very unusual especially with a short chamber as what you described. I have used Magtech 24 gauge to make 577-450MH and they work OK.

[wayne goerres]

I have used 24ga Magtech to make 577 snider. This guns bore measures .577. Should be as simple as cutting the brass to length then annealing then drilling the hole for the pin. 577/450 are neat cartridges. I like old bp cartridges. I have a 500/450 no2 musket in a Westley Richards that I load for.

[collath]

Wayne, I should have known it wasn't the Berdan because you did say it was pin fire. 24 bore makes a lot more sense.

[mike ford]

Peter,
Thanks for the correction.
Wayne,
We are almost neighbors. I live in LaFayette, about 12 miles west of West Point. Maybe we can get together sometime, I am interested in your loading of pinfire ammo, I never did that.
Mike

[Axel E]

Pinfire rifles most often used shortened cardboard shotshell cases in the smaller gauges. 24 bore was very popular. Here is plate IX from Zimmer: "Die Jagd-Feuer-Gewehre", 1869. It shows two of those short rifle cartridges. Hunters then rated the short, blunt "Katzenkoepfe = cat's heads" shown as 79 the most effective. Besides pinfires, needle-, center- and Collath's rifle cartridges were loaded the same way. The 1904 DWM catalog still offered 24 gauge centerfire brass rifle cases both 33.4 and 40.4 mm long.