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Hello to everyone. I just recently joined the association and I am interested in unusual German guns and calibers. I have been reloading and doing load development for a long time in order to shoot what i own. I currently have a Collath drilling in 12 x 12 x 9.3 x92R that I enjoy shooting very much and want to try it at Vinatgers. I also have a stalking rifle in 5.6 x 61 vom Hofe that I make bullets for and shoot quite often. What surprised me was when I received the magazine and there was a detailed article about vom Hofe in it. There is certainly a great depth of knowledge and interest within the membership and I am looking forward to being part of it. Best regards to all, Collath
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I see you have a drilling. That is one gun that I do not own but would like to. Is that 9.3x92r supposed to be 72r. I have a combination gun in 16x9.3x72r. The gun is unmarked as to maker. I think they call them guild guns. It was made around 1926 if memory serves. I shoot 35cal Hornaday bullets and 3031 powder. It is surprising powerful. -
Wayne, good eye! I read that post a couple of time and never caught it. It is a 9.3 X 72R and I traded a 16x16x9.3x72R guild gun off to get it. Guild guns can be very nice and a good value since I believe they were usually some poor gunsmithing apprentice's final exam and they needed to pass to become journeymen. I have never tried the 35 cal hornady's but used the 366/286 interlocks. However these would not shoot to the sights in that gun. I shoot Norma 232's in the Collath and slow powder to get good results. Surprisingly the factory Sellier & Bellot 193's shoot very well too. Is your combination SxS? Hammers?
I really like these types of guns and think they are near the top of gunmaking skill and art.Comment
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Mine is an over and under. The bore slugs at .358 exactly. The 3031 powder load is the only load I could find. I really don't like 3031 powder. I do not like using Dacron in my loads. The original loading data that I used was 36grs and it was too hot. Gun shot quite high. At 34grs it was starting to look better. This gun is in very good shape an made very well.Comment
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Wayne,
I don’t know what the normal range is for that caliber but that bore diameter seems a bit tight for a 9.3. The plus side may be a wider bullet selection especially at the lighter end. I believe the CIP Max pressure for the 9.3x72R is 29,000 psi and I like to use as slow a powder as I can to fill the case, keep the pressure down and still deliver reasonable velocity.
I am not concerned about wasting powder as I feel it is a small consequence to having a better load density and not needing a filler. They can be a bit dirty burning at lower heat and pressure but I don't find that to be a problem either. Hodgdon powders have always been a favorite and H4831 works well for me with the 232 Norma bullet in the 9.3x72R. But I have been experimenting with both Accurate and Vihtavuori lately and find that some are more flexible and give better results in other applications. Unfortunately with things being the way they are these days I don't like to post powder loads I use because of the liabilities.
I also have a F. Hanquet cape gun, SxS with hammers in 16 x 12.7 x 44R.Comment
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9.3s depending on when they were made cover a wide range from .358 to .375 I beleave. I need a slower powder for mine sow I can get the velocity down a little more and fill the case a little better. I also have problems with the Ch4d dies. My sizing die and my M die were made for the larger bullet dia. I have to use the 38special sizing die to bump the first 1/2" of the case down and then use the 38 M die to be able to load mine.Comment
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Collath,
A so called "Guild" gun is not really what many people believe it is.The great majority of these are actually made by known makers for the trade.They were not always clearly marked by the maker so the dealer that bought it for resale could apply it's name to it. I couldn't see where or if you "slugged" your barrel to discover it's groove diameter and there was no photo or description of the proof marks. As wayne said, the groove diameter of 9.3mm rifles,especially, vary widely.Unless you have a supply of the special "express type" bullet made for the 9.3x72R, it is necessary to match the bullet to the rifle. I would especially avoid those 9.3mm bullets made for more modern rifles such as 9.3x62 or 9.3x74R, as they are too "hard" for the older rifles, even if they match the barrel's diameter. "Hard" includes also the bullet's performance on game,due to lower velocity.I was interested that you have a Hanquet in 12.7x44R, I also shoot one of these. I use 8x50R Lebel cases and .509" bullets, but that would be a different thread sometime later.
Wayne,
It may be the Ch4d sizing die is ok,but the expander is too large.When I first loaded 9.3x72R, I used 9.3x74R dies, even though the expander was for a .366 bullet.A sizing die usually oversizes the neck, which is then expanded to match the bullet. By removing the expander(this was a 2 die set)the necks were sized but not expanded.The necks were then small enough that I could expand/bell with a with a selfmade manual tool. If sizer alone won't make it small enough, you might try cast bullets, it may work with .360 bullets( cast bullets traditionally .002" over groove). In fact I load .364" cast bullets in my .358-.359" groove 9.3x72R rifle.Your solution to the problem works and you might not find it worthwhile to change.
There is a 3 part article on loading 9.3x72R ammo in WAIDMANNSHEIL #39-41, that you might find interesting.Unfortunately the charge weights were removed,but powder types were left in. They are avaliable from the "Home Office", for a nominal price.Comment
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Mike, thanks for putting me straight on the guild gun and the variations with the 9.3 bore diameters. The guild drilling I had previously and the Collath I now have both slugged at .366” This may be more unusual than I thought. I also agree that some bullets are "harder" than others due to jacket alloy and thickness and core lead alloy but I haven't had any issues but I wouldn't use these on game for the exact reasons you mention. However I will say that I don't shoot jacketed bullets very often anymore and usually paper patch most all the old guns now. I do make my own jacketed bullets using an older RCE Walnut Hill press especially for my vom Hofe.
I think I may have gotten off to a poor start here by not having my brain fully engaged before I put things to post. I would like to discuss the Hanquet with you. Thanks again.Comment
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My combination gun actually has the proof for jacketed bullets. If I get a chance to take a few pics I will post them later. My bore diameter came from actually slugging the bore.Comment
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Here are some pics of the combination guild gun.Comment
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Have to try that again.Comment
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Wayne, it looks good from the photos. I am going to try to post a few of my drilling and combination later today.Comment
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Collath II.jpgCollath III.jpgCollath III.jpgCollath XII.jpg
Here are a couple of pictures of my Collath. The rifle barrel has marks for nitro proof with 2.45 grams of Gewehr Blattchen Pulver. It is also marked for both Kuffer Mantel Geschoss and what looks like an 18 gram Stahl Mantle Geschoss. The rifle barrel is Krupp-Lauf with crowns over N, G and U marks and an 8.8 bore diameter.
There is a mark that I an not sure of and that is 1550 K.m.g. I know that the K.m.g. is Kuffer mantle geschoss but I have no idea about the 1550. This mark is in the same area as the powder marks. I would like to know if anyone has an idea.
The shotgun barrels are Flussstahl-Krupp-Essen with crowns over S, W, and U. They are marked choke and are tight full on both and also stamped nitro. They are 12 gauge with measured 2-3/4” chambers. The lump is marked C.12.9.3 x 72R.N. on the left with the serial number on the right.
I really like this gun but the action is a bit quirky and it’s not as fast to operate as my other drilling was but I think it is more a lack of practice than anything. Thanks.Comment
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I saw won of those guns for sale on the net the other day. It was on Clay Smith web sight. That little wing (for lack of a better term) on the tang would drive me insane.Comment
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Collath,
Since you are interested in the Collath,you would find a lot of good information in the DER WAFFENSCHMIED #45,GGCA 1913, including the reprinted Teschner catalog. You can buy one from the "home office" for a nominal price.In my opinion you would find this very helpful. Jon Spencer at 1-435-979-9723 is very nice and will be more than willing to help you. BTW, I couldn't find the 1550 K.m.g. mark you mentioned, in the photo. Can you verify it is not some other mark, such as Kg.m?
Wayne,
That is a nice BBF, I'm looking forward to seeing it.
MikeComment
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