A. SEEBER's vierling

[MARAT]

[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]WP_20141103_11_54_43_Pro.jpg[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]I have vierling from A. Seeber, it was made in 1943. But I didn't find any information about maker.
May be you have information about A.Seeber.
Thank you in advance
Marat.

[MARAT]

WP_20141103_11_56_47_Pro__highres.jpgWP_20141103_11_55_53_Pro__highres.jpgWP_20141103_11_56_09_Pro__highres.jpgWP_20141103_11_56_30_Pro.jpgWP_20141103_11_55_44_Pro__highres.jpgextra pictures

[ellenbr]

Sergey:

August Seeber looks to be "the Vierling Man" of Suhl. Burgsmuller, Eblen & Novotny were among a few firearms merchant that sourced him for their wares. Most that I've viewed have that most interesting selector on the left side of the frame but I have not been able to locate the patent, but then again it may be a DRGM, or whatever the acronym was during WWII. Also interesting that several were wartime production.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Here's one that was posted a year or so back but is given as 0.22" LR:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...48&Main=227447

Can't really tell if the selector is same or not.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[MARAT]

Hello Raimey!
There is selector between two rifle barrels on the left side of the frame.
In upper position - shoots 22 hornet
in down position - shoots 7x 57.
you may change barrels only before shoot.
regards Sergey

[MARAT]

Raimey! you must remember my 202 Merkel, which was made in 1943 too.
I had a nice drilling by Jager, it was made in 1943 too. I send pictures to hid grandson and he remember this drilling!!!!
it had a scope on the right barrel.
So, despite the WW2 the hunting weapon industry in Germany worked well.
In Russia it was stopped.
regards Marat

[MARAT]

I have seen shotguns with the same proof mark "A.Seeber".....

[ellenbr]

Indeed I do recall the O/U Sergey. The stamps "A. Seeber" is not a proof mark, but a touchmark. I know semantics but the craftsman applied it for compensation & potential liability. I would appear that Seeber pretty much peddled upper rung offerings or was sourced for the same.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

From the Kellner & Pape „BÜLEX“: August Seeber, Auf der Mauer 12, Suhl, 1890 – 1974. Opened shop in 1922. Specialised in T-Vierlings. In 1928 son Manfred Seeber was born, who continued the shop post-WW2 until 2003. In 1943 the shop was damaged by a fire. In 1949 had to join the BÜHAG, the GDR enforced cooperative of formerly independent gunmakers. About that time they moved to Lauwetter 12, Suhl.
Caution: Not every gun signed Seeber was made by August and Manfred. There were 7 other Seebers active as independent gunmakers in Suhl, most of them predating August, some contemporary.
Especially relating a single letter to a certain Suhl craftsman is problematic at best. A list prepared by the US army in April 1945 shows 23 gun factories and 27 independent small gunmakers. Each one had at least some employees. Only these 50 gunmakers could supply the finished gun to a customer, country gunsmith or wholesaler, but all depended on the outworkers and parts supplyers. To these numbers you have to add the countless outworking shops like barrel makers, actioners, set trigger makers, stock makers, engravers, polishers, hardeners, gun bluers and many more. As late as 1950 there were still about 450 such independent outworking shops active in the Suhl guntrade alone. Even more such shops existed in Zella-Mehlis and the neighbouring towns and villages.

[sharps4590]

Now just how cool is that? What a beautiful, fascinating piece. One of these days I am going to peddle off a pile of firearms and track down a vierling.

[MARAT]

So, Axel< what is your verdict - this vierling was made by August Seeber or only barrels were taken as detail for this vierling????

[MARAT]

WP_20141103_11_57_06_Pro__highres.jpgalso one question - serial number 24471 is too much for A. Seeber and for all Seebers together

[ellenbr]

Axel:
I know not which single letter with which your refer. You seem to be so hung up over the correlation of mechanics and marks that your post doesn't make sense. I have not seen a reference where A. Seeber was a tube maker so what other reason would a German sporting weapon wear A. Seeber unless he was accepting a large portion of the liability for the piece. If I'm not mistaken, all the examples I've viewed wore "A. Seeber" so there were few options for the mechanic. Now if you want to separate the A & Seeber, then that is a horse of another colour. The peril on single letters he would be separating the A. from the A. Seeber.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Marat, that Vierling was certainly made by August Seeber, in the legal sense. Only a Büchsenmachermeister = master gunsmith who finally assembled, inspected and guaranteed the completed gun was regarded as the maker. But as Seeber was listed not as a factory, but as a gunmaker only, he certainly made his guns with the help of outworking specialists. Some work like actioning were certainly done by him inhouse, but other work certainly farmed out, like barrel making, stocking and engraving. Parts like Triggers, lock parts, sights, sling swivels and springs were usually bought in from specialized makers. Rough machining of other parts like the action body was usually also done by specialized shops. All the European guntrade worked this way pre-WW2, be it in Suhl, Zella-Mehlis, Liege, Ferlach, London or Birmingham.
Serial numbers are no hint to total production numbers! Numbering systems varied widely from gunmaker to gunmaker. It was only necessary that the gunmaker could identify the gun from his ledgers. Some like Sauer & Sohn or Schmidt & Habermann numbered all guns in one series, S&S attaching the number at the start, not at the finish or sale of a gun. Others numbered their models seperately, often incorporating an internal model code into the the apparently high number. Other small makers started their series with an arbitrarily chosen high number, so they appeared to be an old established maker with much experience. O.Will, Zella-Mehlis, is documented to have assigned number blocks of 100 each to the different outworking actioners who supplied him. One example: 20 years ago I had a custom Mauser rifle made by one of Suhl trained country master gunmaker. When I saw it in the white the gunsmith asked me about my birthday. I did not know why, but when I collected the rifle it was marked with the address of the gunmaker and the serial number 10248! That shop had certainly made no more than 100 guns in all their 100 years of existence.