Simpson Shotgun identification

[Model 17]

I aquired this Simson double shotgun around 5 yrs ago predominately because the reciever was very ornate and the fact that all other sxs boxlock simpson I have seen have the Greener Cross bolt and this one did not. I am yet to see another similar. The rib markings are "Simson & Co. Suhl". Secon line "Waffenfabriken". The checkering is very fine line with an English stock. The buttblate is horn in a basket woven pattern. The forearm and stock have horn inserts for decoration. I believe this is a prewar but there are no date marking that i can find. It does resemble the 74 with the exception of the crossbolt is internal to the reciever. All of the 74s I have seen have the cross bolt bar protruding on the left. I found a picture of close resemlance in " The simpson Company" book that the GGCA offers. Page 40. Even with the horn diamond inserts on the stock. Unfortunatley, I dont speak German so i cant relate the information. Its termed "Taubenflinte System Anson & Deeley. My curiosity is what do I have here and how rare is it. Definately a quality build just unsure of the grading. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you for your time and help.

[mike ford]

Mod 17,
Did you post photos of the correct gun ? The photos show a Greener cross bolt, which may be concealed however. It would be helpful if you posted photos of the proof marks. BTW the term "Taubenflinte System Anson & Deely" means" Pigeon gun Anson & Deely Action".
Mike

[Model 17]

Thanks Mike. Thats a great start. I will take some picks tonight. I didnt realize that they made the hidden cross bolts. Relatively a novice in this realm. Thank you again.

[Model 17]

Here are the pics of the proof marks. Thanks again.

[mike ford]

Mod 17
Your gun is post war East German (Suhl)proofed, but I didn't see a precise date(mo/yr), so 1950 or later. The eagle next to the crown over"S"(stamped on barrels) shows definitive proof of shotgun barrels.The eagle next to the crown over"U"(on the flats)shows a "view"proof after the definitive proof.The view proof is basically a detailed inspection. The 12 in a circle and 70mm, means it was chambered for 12ga 2 3/4" shells. The 13/1 is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber- about 18.26mm. There are a couple other marks on the barrels that I can't make out, likely barrel maker or other workman's marks. I hope this helps some.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Ford, I'm going to have to call your hand on this one. It experienced proof in Suhl between 1912 & 1923. Snap an image of the side of the tubes where the Eagle Nitro stamp is and also is that a script TW or something of the like forward of the flats?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Raimey,
It certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong; but a pre 1923, 70mm chamber would be highly unusual.
There is something like that ahead of the barrel flats, but I don't think that dates it, more likely workman's touchmark.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Ford:
Forget not that Simson was heavy into autos(Otto Reif) & pigeon shooting during this period. I do not think it uncommon at all for Simson. Maybe I should browse thru a period catalogue as I'm pretty sure it is a Modell 74 or 74E.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Raimey,
How in the world did you see that mark in the thumbnail?I was a little disturbed that I didn't see the "pick and sole" ID mark for Suhl, but over looked that because of the 70mm chamber, which was pretty much standard post war.
Model 17
I think Raimey is right.
Mike

[Model 17]

The rib markings are "Simson & Co. Suhl". Second line "Waffenfabriken". Barrels are also marked Krupp Essen on the top. Hopefully this helps in determination. Apologies for the delay, whats the consensus? A pre war oddity with 70mm chambers?