New from AZ. Questions on Emil Kerner

[mike ford]

chevypilot,
I usually don't like to set a price for someone else's gun, especially when I don't have it "in hand". I would suggest checking the price of similar guns actually sold on the various auction sites, especially those listed with no "reserve".There are plenty of guns on auction sites that have been so overvalued that they haven't sold in several years. Pay no attention to these. Simpson Ltd. recently imported a quantity or guns from Europe, you may find something on their site that is similar enough to give you an idea of value.
Mike

[chevypilot]

I'm a little surprised there are so few comments. Is it that boring of a gun? Any idea on where to find a correct butt plate?

[mike ford]

chevypilot,
No guns are boring to me, especially one from the family of one of my old friends.The gun has seen a hard life, but has potential to be improved considerably.This should be undertaken by someone with experience with renovation of German guns.I believe the correct, or at least acceptable, butt plate would be a plain horn butt plate.This type butt plate is avaliable from several sources, also I have seen "take off" Browning butt plates with the "Browning" markings taken off used from time to time. My advice is to look on this gun as a "fun" project to work on and use. You can get years of satisfaction from it. Enjoy.
Mike

[chevypilot]

Thanks again Mike. I plan on having lots of good shooting with it, but probably never really "restore" it. I'm just always curious wether I got a good deal or not. I paid just under $400.

[chevypilot]

I found a couple more interesting marks. What do you make of these?

[chevypilot]

My theory, please comment:

I believe the shotgun was made pre 1912 and originally blackpowder.

Right barrel flat proof marks: Eagle on top of crowned U on top of 16/1 (meaning Second or final black powder proof, valid such only with a crowned U, Was replaced 1912 by no 17 for Nitro proof, but was still valid until 1939 as final black powder proof. Second set of markings shows crown W over circled 16 (meaning choked barrel, circle used 1891-1945)

Left barrel flat proof marks: exactly as above with the exception of NO crown W.

Higher up on both barrels, identically marked is a chicken looking eagle (similar to the 50's-70s west german markings) with a Faint J underneath (reproof 1951-1971) next to a crowned S (smoothbore 1950-92).

On the watertable are similiar markings but obviously different proofhouses from one verticle set to the other.

No markings on the breechface.

The last set of pictures I posted shows what I believe to be a very tiny either Vienna or Ferlach proofhouse mark, and up by the center lug a Proofhouse mark of later origin.

Of other interest is that the last two digits of the serial number is also stamped on the inside of the trigger gaurd and also on the inside of the forearm release mechanism.

[mike ford]

chevypilot,
I can't find much in your theory to argue with,but would feel better if Axel would weigh in.A couple points: By your theory of two different proofhouses marks on the barrel watertable,and Austrian proof marks, then three proof houses would have been involved.This is not likely. I can see the similarity of one of the marks and an Austrian proofhouse's mark, but I think it is something else.If it was Austrian proofed,I believe it would show a "string" of other numbers.The word Nitro being in "block letters",indicates it was proofed for smokeless powder in Suhl. By your theory of two proofhouses, this would mean the initial proof was done in Zella-Mehlis. The maker was located in Suhl and Suhler makers hardly ever used the Zella-Mehlis proof house.The barrel flats, sides of the locking lugs,and the rear of the barrels, were by tradition polished bright.By this it would make it easier to see the marks,if you polished them bright with worn 320 grit abrasive cloth, backed by a file. I look forward to reading Axel's assessment.
Mike

[chevypilot]

Thanks Mike, I too look forward to other comments. It's very interesting trying to trace the history.

I probably should have also put a caveat (if not already apparent) that I am extremely new to this, and my research is limited to what is available online and some deduction based on the differences in marking techniques. As of yet, I haven't acquired any other physical examples or reference books for comparison.

[Axel E]

Sorry, at this time I am rather occupied with examining wannabe hunters, researching an article or two for Dick Hummel and hunting roebuck. Though I am retired since May 1, the usual illness already strikes: No time at all!
Chevypilot, none of your photos shows the maker's inscription "Emil Kerner" you are referring to. From your question I assume it is inscribed "Emil Kerner" only. This is important for dating the gun.
Emil Kerner, Trübenbachstr.3, Suhl, must not be confused with the renowned and inventive gunmaker Ernst Kerner, Lutterothstr.7, Suhl.
The much less known Emil Kerner opened his shop in 1890. From 1921 on the company was renamed "Emil Kerner & Sohn". The company went into receivership in 1929. After passing through several hands the remains were taken over by Emil Eckoldt in 1936. So, if your gun shows "Emil Kerner" only, it was made between 1912 and 1921, if "E.K. & Sohn" 1921 and 1929.
The gun was proofed twice in Suhl after 1912, as it shows the crown/R = reproof stamp too. As the front/right trigger is a single-set one, I think an interchangeable set of combination, cape gun barrels were fitted at a customer's request to a completed shotgun already in stock. These cape gun barrels got lost in the course of time. Fitting such extra barrels required reproof of the whole set. I can see no mark of an Austrian, Ferlach proof. The small marks shown are the usual, now unidentified, marks of the countless outworkers to the trade like barrelmakers, action filers, stockers and so on. I very much doubt Emil Kerner having all the capabilities to make a complete gun in-house.

[chevypilot]

Axel, thank you very much for the info. Please see the second to last photo on post #6 on page 1 of this thread. I believe it to read "Emil Kerner, Suhl". I cannot read the german inscription on the opposite barrel in the same relative spot. So, would it be safe to assume 1912-1921, and the reproof mark due to a set of cape barrels (now lost unfortunately) being fitted?

[Axel E]

I did not see those photos. Exactly, the gun was made 1912-1921. The inscription on the other barrel seems to be "Gewehrfabrik" = gun factory. Everyone called his establishment a "factory" then. Remember, the origial meaning of the words Fabrikant or Faktor was for a man who took in orders and farmed out the work to the (hopefully) most able specialists for that particular job, subsequently taking the final responsibility for the final product which actually was the assembled work of several craftsmen.

[chevypilot]

Very interesting that this was built during the Great War. Amazing that shops were still building and selling for the commercial hunting market. The outsourcing would also fall right in line with another comment on the doublegunshop forum stating "this is an *F.W. Keßler sourced hammergun, or components"