New from AZ. Questions on Emil Kerner

[chevypilot]

Hello all, I'm new here and from SE AZ, USA.

I'd really like to find out as much history and possible value range on an Emil Kerner, Suhl side by side 16g, exposed hammer shotgun I just acquired. It is completely engraved and checkered. Has alot of proof markings and such. I'm especially interested in date of manufacture and what type ammo I can fire.

The barrels measure 29", and the weight is approx 6.5lbs. Very light compared to my Riverside arms 16g. The plastic part of the buttplate is obviously a replacement, but the screws in the butt plate appear to match the engraved screws throughout the gun. I cannot get the the trigger with screw to "set" in any way. It does not "click" when pushed forward. There is about an 1/8" play forward and about a 1/4" play backward. It fires at the same point each time. Both barrels are smooth.

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more pics

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can't quite make out what that letter is. There also appears to be some markings behind the lug on the inside, can't quite make them out:

[mike ford]

Chevypilot,
Others will likely respond also, but a few points I noticed are as follow:
While several things can cause it, the most likely reason the set trigger won't set is misadjustment of the screw.
The gun more than likely had a set of combination or double rifle barrels at one time, hence the set trigger.
The gun underwent some significant repair or modification, as evidenced by the crown "R" proof mark.
Other than the buttplate, a few other minor repairs/ screw replacements would be helpful.
While I haven't verified it, I think the gun was proofed in Suhl between 1912 and 1923.
The gun is chambered for 16 ga 2 1/2" shells rather than the current 2 3/4".

Emil Kerner was a well known and respected name for many years and this included his sons and grand son. I have a over/under combination gun marked Emil Kerner and Sons. One of his sons (Ernst, I believe) married into the Imman Meffert family and his grandson Helmut Kerner was retired but was working on a new "tip up" rifle action when I saw him last in 1982. Helmut had at least a grown son at that time, but sadly I don't know if he is involved in the business. I'm sure either Axel or Raimey will show up with more precise/reliable information.
Mike

[chevypilot]

Thanks Mike! The detail of engraving is incredible, especially under a magnifying glass. To bad the other set of barrels is not around. What kind of modifications would dictate the crown R stamp? Was it common to be restamped, unlike today in the usa where repairs/modifications are not recorded?

You mention it could benefit from screw replacement and other? Why is that? Would it be worth it? Is there areputable vendor you could recommend?

[mike ford]

chevypilot,
The gun itself, and by extension the engraving, was a good working gun, typical of one that would be used day to day.It is not a exhibition grade gun.If they were around, you would have a lot of fun with the combination barrels, there would be a good chance that the rifle caliber would have been either 9.3x72R or one of the 8mms (just by the number of these made). Any of these would be pretty loadable with avaliable components. Modifications/significant repairs would require a repair proof (crown R).Rechambering, relaying ribs(more than small spots), major repairs of the locks,etc would require this.I could not see signs of the repair/mod that resulted in the mark. The proof law required the mark and in the US we don't have such a law. There seems to be a missing screw in the forearm. The screws holding the hammers on seem to be mismatching replacements( they can be replaced and engraved to match).Other screws are "buggered up" and are mislocated. They can be cleaned up and reengraved to match. Screws were "clocked"( slots lined up fore and aft) and since the slots are "off",they seem to be in the wrong place. Screws were usually marked on the end(threaded end), the ones on one side would have a line filed into it and on the otherside, there would be no mark.Where there would be 3 of the same screw( some in a drilling). the third one would be marked with an X filed on the end. The ones that don't line up may be placed on the other side. If they still don't line up. they may be worn. You won't be able to buy finished screws from a vendor. Either you or a gunsmith will have to make them. There are avaliable (mostly overseas) blank screws suitable for clocking. They have a very thick head and temporary slot. When they are pulled up tight, a new slot is marked and either sawed or filed in. The head is then filed to thickness and engraved. Any of the gunsmiths listed in the "Trade Directory" in WAIDMANNSHEIL,should be able to help you.
Good luck,
Mike

[chevypilot]

Thanks again Mike. In this condition, what would your opinion on value be?