New Member

[Waldkirch]

Hi all. I am just in the process of trying to get this Shotgun from a person who really has no idea what it is. He remembers paying about $2100, which I think may have been too much. I got help from Tom Devins and Jon Spencer, who say it is a Simson - Franz Jaeger & Co.. It is a 16 gauge with short chambers, choked full and full with 29 13/16" barrels made by Ehrhardt- Stahl. The markings indicate the "HERALD" registered trademark. On the sight rib it is marked "J.KONCZAKOWSKI, K.k HOFLIEFERANT, TESCHEN" indicating that J. Konczakowsi of Teschen was a purveyor of goods the the royal house of Prussia. The "NITRO" proof marks would indicate this this gun was post 1912 and prior to 1923. The gun weighs just shy of 6 lbs 3oz. It also has cocking indicators. This weapon seems to be in very good shape, but does have some very light surface rust on the entire length of the barrels. From what research I have done I think that it is grade 5 gun, but do not know what model. I have included some pictures, and if anyone can add some info I would be appreciated.


PS I have more pictures if needed. I will be shooting this gun this weekend on live birds as I raise and train Deutsche Drahthaar

[algmule]

Hello

Josef Konczakowski, Eisenhandlung, Demelplatz 19, Teschen. Up until and including 1910 there was the mentioned Josef Konczakowski but also a Bruno Konczakowski. Josef's establishment was an ironmonger's (hardware store in Am. English I believe) and Bruno was for a while Geschäftsleiter at that establishment. 1910 Bruno is mentioned as having a Waffenhandlung but is also listed as having an ironmonger's. In 1911 there are two Konczakowskis in Teschen: Bruno, and a Kaufmanns-Witwe Emilie. Bruno had the same address for his establishment as Josef.

I'm a bit bothered about the Nitro-marking coupled with Josef Konczakowski. Does the shotgun have a crown R marking.

I saw the images you posted. What an absolute gem of a shotgun. I'm turning green. Please post further images.

EDIT: forget the "including 1910". See post below.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Waldkirch,
Welcome, we are glad to have you with us. I agree with Peter, it is a very nice gun.
Mike

[Waldkirch]

New Member - missing pictures

2 crowns with W- and 2 crowns with S see pictures

[Waldkirch]

new member - missing pictures 2

These pictures may answer more questions

[Waldkirch]

Thanks for the welcome-- I am falling in love with this gun more and more-- just came back from a gunsmith and after he drooled over the gun and checked it out he determined that the chambers had be opened to 2 3/4"

[mike ford]

Waldkirch,
The crown W is the mark showing the barrels are choked, but amount of constriction is not shown. The crown S means the barrel was proofed for shot. The crown U next to the eagle means it underwent a View proof, after a definitive proof. The View proof was a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions. The 16 in a circle means it originally had the standard length 16 gauge chamber, which was 65mm( 2 1/2- 2 9/16"). As you have stated, someone has extended the chambers to 70mm( 2 3/4"). It would be helpful to stamp a "70" on the extractor, to show the the extended chambers. The 16/1 is the bore diameter, ahead of the chambers. This translates to about 16.99 mm. The "Nitro" written in block letters means it was proofed in Suhl. The lack of a date indicates it was proofed after early 1893, but before about 1923.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Josef Konczakowski died January 27, 1909, at the age of 58.

I would leave the gun as is.

EDIT: understood incorrectly. Now understand the chambers had already been lengthened.

EDIT again:
Verleihung des Hoftitels
Dem hiesigen Kaufmanne herrn Josef Konczakowski, Chef der altrenommirten Eisenwarenhandlung J. Konczakowski, wurde der Titel k.u.k. Hoflieferant verliehen.
(December 1907)

Another EDIT: the name of the business remained J. Konczakowski after son Bruno took over so I'm no longer bothered by the Nitro-marking coupled with J. Konczakowski on the rib. Bruno was also k.u.k. Hoflieferant - at least up until 1918.

And yet another EDIT: the business began in 1878.

Kind regards
Peter

[Waldkirch]

Mike Ford and Algmule, many thanks to both of you. You guys are a plethora of information. Also am thinking that this weapon is a Franz Jaeger, now I need to check the Franz Jaeger catalog.

[Axel E]

Waldkirch, a reprint of a 1910-11 Franz Jaeger, tm Herold, catalog is available from the GGCA shop,
http://www.germanguns.com/catalog-reprints.html (scroll down). But your gun resembles none of the then Jaeger offerings. What makes you think your gun is a Jaeger or Simson? I can see neither a Jaeger/Herold nor a Simson mark in your photos. And this gun is of common design, not made to one of Franz Jaeger's patents. BTW, Franz Jaeger and Simson were independent companies, not related. The much larger Simson company merely made some guns to Jaeger's 1904 and 1910 patents under licence. These guns had dual underlugs, one under each barrel, while your pics show a gun with a conventional central underlump.
The inscription "Ehrhard Stahl" rather points to the former Dreyse factory in Soemmerda or to some other Suhl gunmakers like Meffert. The inventor Heinrich Ehrhard was the founder of Rheinmetall, an armament concern still going strong. (the main gun of the current US Abrams battle tank is made under licence from Rheinmetall) In 1902 Rheinmetall bought the Soemmerda factory from Nikolaus von Dreyse II and continued making sporting guns for the trade until WW1.
BTW: Teschen, now Polish Cieszyn with Czech Český Těšín on the other side of the river Olza, never was German or Prussian. Until 1918 it was an Austrian city. Hence the title " k.u.k. Hoflieferant" = supplier to the imperial (Austrian) and royal (Hungarian) court. Franz Josef was both Austrian Kaiser = emperor and Hungarian King in the Austro – Hungarian double monarchy. But the ironmongers Konczakowski were not gunmakers to the kuk court, they merely retailed this gun. Austria was quite liberal in giving the title "Hoflieferant" to any established business in their realm, be it a jeweler, gunmaker, butcher, carpenter, brewer or baker. Even today you may find "k.u.k. Hoflieferant" over the door of most old upnose shops in Vienna.

[mike ford]

Waldkirch,
I had also noticed no Simson-Franz Jaeger marks, but presumed that since Tom and Jon had inspected it, they must have seen such markings and you simply didn't photograph them. Such marks are often found on the top lever, but are not on yours. Could you post photos of the trigger plate( bottom of the gun) or any other place they may be. This is why it is important to include all markings; without them we don't have all available information for our evaluation.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

No guns but here is a link to a J. Konczakowski catalogue. For those generally interested in tools it may be worth your while.
https://www.sbc.org.pl/dlibra/public...ntent?ref=desc

and here is a link to J. Konczakowski's shop front
https://cieszyn.fotopolska.eu/124316,foto.html

Also:
waldkirch.jpg
Waldkirch2.jpg

Anything on the butt plate? The thing has two serials.

EDIT: and here's a link to an ad from 1912. No guns.
https://fotopolska.eu/Cieszyn/b27954...=643-przedmiot
Apparently the business was still around in 1944 under the name F.J. Konczakowski.

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Namnlös.jpg

Also:
XXXSummer1904.jpg
a bit earlier than your gun but at least a J. Konczakowski ad with a gun.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

OK, so the gun was made by Franz Jaeger indeed, but not by Simson. The photos you posted before did not show Jaeger's Herold trademark. Here is the page from Franz Jaeger's 1910 catalog that describes such a high grade offering, but not showing this special order grade.

Your gun is apparently a boxlock model/grade Nr. 11 (with double triggers) or Nr.12 (single trigger) with extra cost ejector. I interpret the description, condensed from models 7 to 12, this way:
True Anson and Deeley boxlock action, Ehrhard barrels (mentioned on another page), double underbolting and Greener crossbolt, tang safety, elaborate finest English scroll or hunting scene engraving to order, highest grade stock wood, Mark 340.- (11) or 380.- (12) + 100.- ejectors. (The 1908 Alfa catalog listed an original Mauser, Oberndorf, B-type rifle at Mark 155,- or a Winchester 94 carbine at Mark 84.-)

[algmule]

Hello

Axel,
out of curiosity. What would be the German word for the marked area (see image)?
Jaeger-Drilling.JPG

I've seen catalogue offerings from F. Jäger with this detail on Drillings and Bockbüchsflinten, but they differed from the thread-topic mechanically. What is the function of the marked area in the image?

EDIT: Axel, there are further images in another thread under New Members post here.

Kind regards
Peter