Info on these guns

[Axel E]

I still read the bore diameter as 6.3 mm. There is another hint in the service load marked, as I read it now: It is given as "1.6 g G.B.P. / St.M.G". This leaves the 6.5x58R S&S as the only option. The two rimmed "6.5 mm" cartridges with 6.7 mm = .264" bullets then known in Germany, the 6.5x57R and the 6.5x53R Mannlicher, would have been marked "2.3 or 2.5 g GBP / StMG".

[mike ford]

Axel,
Did you click on the "imgur.com" link that bobcat above posted? When I did and magnified the image, it was pretty clearly 6.5mm, to me. On the otherhand there is, at least, one 6.5x58R S&S that has been pretty extensively written about, that has .264" groove diameter. The owner is an experienced handloader, has "slugged" the barrel, and frequently hunts coyotes with it. I would be a little surprised, but not shocked, and certainly not disappointed; to find a 6.5x58R S&S, or even a 6.5x48R S&S, built on an oversized .264" barrel.

bobcat 45,
Guns that are not marked, as to maker, are sometimes incorrectly called "Guild" guns. They are actually guns that were made for "the trade", and sold to dealers for marketing to the public. They were often marked with the dealer's name or logo, even though made by a "known" maker. Some, such as yours, were sold without the dealer's mark. Sometimes the actual maker can be IDed, but often not. Value is a very subjective thing and I avoid estimating the value of someone else's gun that I don't have "in hand". If you look to the internet for value, consider only similar guns actual sale prices or "firm fixed prices" on dealers sites. Auction sites often have unreasonable "minimum" prices and the guns are unsold for long periods of time. Whether you add the gun to your insurance is entirely up to you, but it is clearly a quality gun that I would be proud to own. A "plus" is the nice engraving and the fact that it is proofed for smokeless powder. "Minuses" are the short shotshell chambers, unknown clawmount bases for an unknown scope( unless you have the scope, which would be a big plus), and a possibly unknown rifle chamber( you can easily verify that it is 6.5x58R S&S by having a chamber cast made), and ammo for 6.5x58R S&S must be handloaded by the owner or custom loaded ( expensive). I'm looking forward to seeing improved photos of the over and under.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, there are two phtos on imgur. I blew up both a bit. On the top photo it looks more like 6,3. The bottom one may be 6.5 indeed. But this does not matter much, as the 6.5x58R S&S was the only common "6.5 mm" cartridge that fits the 1.6 g / StMG load marking. Old rifle barrels were a bit undersized quite often, as there were no minimum – maximum standards.The current, since 1940, minimum bore/groove diameters are 6.3/6.55 mm = .248/.2578" for the 6.5x52R, 6.4/6.64 = .252/.2614" for the 6.5x58R S&S, 6.45/6.70 = .254/.2638" for the 6.5x57R and 6.48/6.78 mm = .255/.2669" for the 6.5x53R Mannlicher. Before you ask, the 6.5x54 M-S shares the same minimum barrel dimensions with the 6.5x53R, both using 6.70 mm = .264" maximum bullets. When these cartridges and barrels were designed in the 1890s, the Steyr people had to work with the lousy Austrian state monopoly powders. So they designed the barrels a bit oversized by today's standards to allow for some slugging up of the long, heavy bullets under the impact of their fast burning, high pressure powder.

[bobcat45]

Wow thanks for all the info guys, I knew that one might be near impossible to ID a maker on but appreciate all the help. Heres a couple pics of the 2nd gun.

https://imgur.com/a/YB5w4BY

[mike ford]

bobcat45,
Now, this one I recognize. You have an over/under combination gun made by the well known firm Immanual(?) Meffert. "Hubertus" was their house brand and they were located in Suhl. The one you have has a "Dural" receiver. Dural is an aluminum alloy and Meffert was one of the first, if not the first, to use it for receivers. Areas of stress or wear are reinforced by steel inserts, so there is no reason for the apprehension some have over Dural receivers. Meffert started using Dural in the mid 1930s, so this one was made during the time the Suhl proof house was marking the dates. If you send photos of the other markings, especially the proof marks under the barrels, we can provide much more information.
Mike

[bobcat45]

sorry for the delay heres the underside of the barrel, again appreciate the help.

https://imgur.com/a/QQcu0Fe

[Axel E]

Proofed in Suhl 433 = April 1933. Shot barrel proofed for 16 – 65 = 16 g 2 ½" cartridges. Rifle barrel proofed for a 9.3X72R load with slightly higher pressure than the then usual 1800 at limit, crown/E mark. Maybe the former Funk load, using a 225 gr copper jacket bullet ahead of 49 gr R5 powder for 2300? fps at 2100 at. That velocity seems to be a bit optimistic to me, possibly estimated instead of chronographed. My friend's Simson double rifle drilling proofed for this load regulates with my handloads using a 250 gr .358 Hornady bullet in front of 47 gr VV N140. Over the last 20 years or so he shot lots of wild boar and some deer with it.

[mike ford]

Axel,
The Meffert seems to have been proofed for a 12gram KMG bullet. I also have an express proofed 9.3x72R for the 12 gram bullet, and another one ( also E proof) for a 13 gram bullet; do you know what these loads were?
Mike

[Axel E]

Probably the old RWS "Swiss" load: A 13 g = 200 gr pointed copper jacket bullet in front of 2.9 g = 45 gr R5 powder, mv 685 m/s = 2247 fps at 1800 at pressure as opposed to the "standard" bp pressure load with a 12.5 g = 193 gr Tesco type bullet in front of 2.6 g = 40 gr R5, mv 614 m/s = 2014 fps, pressure 1500 at.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks, based on that info, it seems that any load 2100 at or less would be ok in either of the "Express" proofed rifles ( subject to suitable bullet selection). We have a couple new bullets to play with that will be useable in .358-.359" 9.3x72Rs. The new "Flextip" 35 Remington bullet( .358") is promising and the new .350 Legend( Winchester)( .357")bullet might work, even though a little small. That should move them to "Hochwild" legal loads, subject to actual chronograph results.
Mike

[bobcat45]

thanks for all the info on these 2 guns. i have an interest in selling them would you know anyone interested in them. thanks bob

[mike ford]

Axel,
I now have the SXS and can confirm the bore diameter is marked 6.3 , not 6.5 as the "blown up" photo seemed to show. I slugged the barrel, and the groove diameter is confirmed as .260" as is normal for 6.5x58R. I didn't make a chamber cast, but I chambers, perfectly, a factory 6.5x58R S&S cartridge. No other chamber would have accepted this cartridge w/o being too large for the rim recess. The proof marks are very small, but the receiver is also. This made the marks seem the normal size for Suhl proof marks. Now, I doubt it was proofed in Suhl. I have a drilling that was proofed in Zella-Mehilis, but reproofed( post war) in Ulm. The Ulm marks are so small that I didn't notice them in the poor lighting of the gunshow. Since the Oberndorf proof house was moved across the river to Ulm, post war, was the SXS proofed in Oberndorf instead of Suhl? I don't have a sample of Frankfurt am Oder proof marks so I don't know how they compare, size wise.
Mike