Info on these guns

[bobcat45]

I have two German guns that have been in my family for about 70 years which I know nothing about would like to get some information on them if possible

C4BC800A-69AB-4A28-BEF6-EB7EF4E41603.jpg
C7A33DA6-7188-467A-8E9B-442F100C194D.jpg
7E4E6C5E-57DE-4BCD-8D77-D6B66846B1B3.jpg
7E4E6C5E-57DE-4BCD-8D77-D6B66846B1B3.jpg
8DD402D8-930E-4366-994F-D28B1423053F.jpg

[mike ford]

bobcat,
You mentioned two guns, but you seemed to show only one. The photos are not clear enough to determine whether the gun is a double rifle or a SXS combination gun. If you provide photos that include all the markings that can be read , we will try again. Glare on the existing ones and orientation are the main problems. If you can't read the markings in the photos, neither can we. I tried to manipulate the photos to make them readable, but was unsuccessful.
Mike

[bobcat45]

New pix

U[ATTACH=CONFIG]5236[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5238[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5238[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5238[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5239[/ATTACH]

[mike ford]

Bob
The problem with glare is gone, but still I can't read all the markings. The size is too small, and I still can't "blow up" the photos. At least, now I can tell that it is a SXS combination gun, proofed in Suhl( therefore likely made there or close by). The bore( not groove or bullet) diameter is 6,(something- couldn't read it)mm. There doesn't seem to be a case length shown, so with the bore diameter in mm and no case length; I think it was proofed in 1911-12. It was proofed with "Rifle Flake Powder", but I couldn't make out the bullet type. The rifle chambering will require a chamber cast to ID. The shotgun chambering also can't be read in the photo, but on the flat of the left hand barrel, you will see a number in a circle. That number will be the gauge of the chamber, but it will be shorter than the currently standard length( chamber will be 2 1/2- 2 5/8",depending on gauge, versus current 2 3/4" standard). The gun is nitro proofed. I would like to give you more/better information, but I can't do better without better info.
Mike

[bobcat45]

669EF03C-872B-474E-A97E-50F1B255B11A.jpg6882D4C1-0CA7-48AF-BB97-23F733518764.jpg6882D4C1-0CA7-48AF-BB97-23F733518764.jpg669EF03C-872B-474E-A97E-50F1B255B11A.jpg This is the second gone it’s an okver and under are trying to do all this from my phone this is all new to me I know the pictures aren’t that good but did the best I could do and I really appreciate the info thank you

[JustFrank]

I'll work on those images a little bit, and see if that will help. Who knows???

[mike ford]

Bob,
I have the same problems with these as for the other gun. About the only thing I can say is this one is an over and under combination gun, the shotgun chamber size will be determined like the other gun. This one too seems to have been proofed in Suhl, so was likely made there or close by. The barrels seem to have been made of Krupp barrel steel; while I can't read it, I'm pretty sure I recognize the logo. I can't see enough to have any idea, at all, what the rifle barrel is chambered for. Keep in mind that I am pretty much computer illiterate, but it might help if you would load the photos into your computer, then post from the computer to the forum. We are here to help people learn about their German guns, and I sorry I'm not able to do a better job.
Mike

JustFrank,
Thanks for trying, it can't get worse.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike, except for the Nitro, your eyes are better then mine. I can't get squat out of them.

[JustFrank]

All,

I get 6.3mm so far on the bore (last image on the first group of images sent - was able to clean that image up a little bit).

I've grabbed copies of all of the images in the thread and am going to work on those tonight - on a computer system with better hardware and image manipulation software.

I might get lucky, but these images are certainly suffering from the GIGO syndrome...

No big deal Bob, we've all been there, done that...

[mike ford]

JustFrank,
6.3mm bore diameter would be shown for several different 6.5mm nominal cartridges, absent case length, a chamber cast is necessary. Thanks BTW.
Mike

[JustFrank]

Thanks Mike, learning here, and appreciated.

Well, after 2 hours, I don't think there's a lot more than the image attached to be gotten by me. The raw, starting images are just too low in resolution, and no level of interpolation/extrapolation is doing the trick. I feel like a weatherman again!

I hope this helps out in some way...

bobcat45.jpg

[bobcat45]

Not sure if its something im doing but everything i post gets resized, regardless if i post from mobile or computer. So I've uploaded to imgur where everything is much easier to see. If theres anything specific you'd like to see please let me know and I'll take additional pictures. Apologies.

https://imgur.com/a/nBJ4BVz

[Axel E]

The 6.3 mm bore diameter and the service load info "1.6 gramm rifle flake powder " with a jacketed (illegible: K = copper or St = steel) point either the 6.5x58R S&S, if "Steel" marked, or the 6.5x52R = .25-35 Win., if "K" marked.

[mike ford]

bobcat,
That helped a lot, for the photos shown. The crown U under the eagle is the mark for "View" proof after a definitive proof. View proof is basically a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions. The crown G is the proof mark for a single projectile ( bullet). The crown S is the mark for Shot. I didn't see a crown W. If there is one, it means the barrel is choked, if not, it is cylinder bored. The 16 in a circle verifies it is 16 gauge 65mm chamber. The 16/1 is the bore diameter ahead of the 16 ga. chamber. This translates to 16.99 mm in your case. Axel correctly addressed the rifle caliber, based on his and everyone else's reading the stamp as 6.3mm. Under the imgur improved photo, I now read it as 6.5mm. The 6.3mm would usually be found on 6.5mm nominal cartridges with bullet diameters .256- .261"; whereas 6.5mm is usually found on nominal cartridges with .264"-.268". Maybe Axel will comeback in to compare this new diameter with the service load. If you do the same thing with the other photos, we could provide more info for your other gun.
Mike

[bobcat45]

Thanks

bobcat,
That helped a lot, for the photos shown. The crown U under the eagle is the mark for "View" proof after a definitive proof. View proof is basically a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions. The crown G is the proof mark for a single projectile ( bullet). The crown S is the mark for Shot. I didn't see a crown W. If there is one, it means the barrel is choked, if not, it is cylinder bored. The 16 in a circle verifies it is 16 gauge 65mm chamber. The 16/1 is the bore diameter ahead of the 16 ga. chamber. This translates to 16.99 mm in your case. Axel correctly addressed the rifle caliber, based on his and everyone else's reading the stamp as 6.3mm. Under the imgur improved photo, I now read it as 6.5mm. The 6.3mm would usually be found on 6.5mm nominal cartridges with bullet diameters .256- .261"; whereas 6.5mm is usually found on nominal cartridges with .264"-.268". Maybe Axel will comeback in to compare this new diameter with the service load. If you do the same thing with the other photos, we could provide more info for your other gun.
Mike

Thanks for your help I appreciate it. That one is a bit of mystery to me in that it has no markings to see who it came from. Another question do you think this gun is worth adding to my firearms insurance and if so what do you think it’s value is? I am working on the pictures for the other gun will post it soon, again thanks for all your help!