Drgm info

[R. Marshall]

Hello, this is my first post. Is there anyway to find out what DRGM 1116 was issued for?


Thanks,
Robert

[mike ford]

Robert,
I suggest you ask Larry Schuknecht at Dutchman Wood Works or "Ask Axel" through "WAIDMANNSHEIL".
Mike

[Axel E]

"1116" cannot be a DRGM number. A DRGM with such a low number must have been issued in early 1892. So it had expired by 1898 at latest. The earliest gun-related DRGM I found was # 33943 from 1894. According to the visible Suhl, GDR proofmarks your gun was proofed 1951 – 1974, far too late for such a low DRGM number. So 1116 is rather a serial number, not related to the DRGM mark. More photos, showing all the marks and numbers on the gun, may allow closer dating.

[R. Marshall]

Thanks for the info. Here are a few more pictures.

[R. Marshall]

a few more pics

[R. Marshall]

engraving

[algmule]

Hello

I'd say the serial is 3654. The DRP 60215 is a Friedrich Wilhelm Heym patent from 1891. I have no answer to the DRGM 1116, if indeed the 1116 is a DRGM.

EDIT: I have a Kaufmann Karl (sometimes Carl or C) Körmes in Leipzig as far back as 1847. In Thomasgäßchen 6 (possibly present day Thomasgasse). In 1852 he was advertizing French powder. In 1927 the Inhaber of the business was an A Rohland https://lot-tissimo.com/de/i/8409244.

Kind regards
Peter

[R. Marshall]

Thanks for the help. Mr. Ford and Raimey were a big help over on the DGS forum and I thought I would post it here to share and try to get a wee bit more info. Thanks

[Axel E]

Oops!, after seeing rhe complete proofmarks I have to revoke. The drilling is much older than I thought. It was proofed in Suhl 1912 – 1923. As the load info "2.3 gramm GewehrBlättchenPulver / g.G.B.P." is a bit mangled and still essentially of pre-1912 type it was proofed in 1912 IMHO. This gun has many "fathers". It was retailed by the shop of Karl Körmes, Leipzig. Kellner & (Flintenkalle) Pape's "BÜLEX" has another address, Klostergasse 5. Claimed being founded in 1797, existed until WW2.
DRP # 60215 of 1891 was issued to F.W. Heym, Suhl. It covered a tue Anson & Deeley type boxlock drilling with three locks and three triggers. See
https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNe...ge=1&xxxfull=1
By 1912 both a 1891 patent and a 1892 DRGM had expired. Neverless, many gunmakers then marked their guns with meaningless, but impressive patents and DRGMs. I know no list of the very early DRGMs like # 1116. Anyhow, if not published or preserved elsewhere, all that is known about the pre-1935 DRGMs is the date, the inventor and the title, like "a safety for three-barrel guns" or "folding rear sight". As your drilling is a true boxlock like described in F.W.Heym's patent, but as you don't mention three triggers, the DRGM may have been for a barrel selector?
The drilling, it's barrels at least, was mad e by Krieger & Gnädig, Suhl, "gun factory", "K in squared G" tm, made motorcycles too pre-1920, later fate unknown. The rifle barrel is signed by L.K., the well known barrelmaker Louis Kelber, Suhl, founded 1894. Apparently the gun was submitted to the proofhouse by his relative Erich Kelber, gunmaker, Suhl, died 1925.

[R. Marshall]

Thanks for your reply Axel. It only has two triggers.

[algmule]

Hello

Although somewhat off-topic as it isn’t Drilling related I post anyway, and, again, although it says “Körnes” and not Körmes I believe it’s the same business/gentleman as is discussed, and it’s about a Gebrauchmuster. From 1904 so there must have been a later Karl Körmes than the one who founded the business.

”Kl. 45 k. Körnes Karl, Leipzig, Klostergasse 5: Geflügelkorb für Jagdzwecke mit am oberen Rande und in der Mitte des dürchbrochenen Geflechtes desselben vorgesehenen Lücken zum etagenweisen Einhängen des Geflügels.” (Poultry basket for hunting purposes with gaps provided at the top and in the middle of the broken braid for poultry hanging in piles. [Google Translate])

From 1852:
"Franz. Jagdpulver, Patent- und Goslar-Schrot, Zündhütchen und Flintenpropfe verkauft im Ganzen und Einzelnen
Karl Körmes, Leipzig, Thomasgäßchen Nr. 6."

Also: the company Karl Körmes exhibited its wares at the “Internationalen Baufachausstellung in Leipzig" in 1913.

Kind regards
Peter

[R. Marshall]

Thanks for the info.

[ellenbr]

Axel E.:

The K encompassed by a G(Boxed K variant) must have denoted effort by Gebrüder Krieger prior to Franz Gnädig joining their merry lot in 1919, unless they had a prior business in the weapons making business. Some composed info below:

"Must have been a short lived concern or there's additional info elsewhere seeing there were 4 brothers Krieger, Karl, Max, Peter & Oskar, all of Berlin, along w/ technical whiz Franz Gnädig. Gebrüder Krieger might just represent the trademark of K inside a G w/ an arrow thru it or it could represent the addition of Gnädig after WWI. Karl was the chauffeur of Kaiser Wilhelm II and a thrill seeker. All were pioneers in aviation up until WWI put a damper on that, so they turned to motorcycles. But Karl Krieger received a donated engine from Kaiser Wilhelm II, constructed his own plane & then was Nr. 113 in obtaining his pilot's license. He met his demise as a test pilot in the latter part of WWI.

So Gebrüder Krieger, being now Max, Peter & Oskar Krieger partner with designer Franz Gnädig in 1919 and transition from aviation to motorcycles. They were ahead of their time in design & Germany with is economic troubles, saw fierce competition in the motorcycle realm so the concern was absorbed in 1922. There were a couple more name changes & in 1927 when Paul Henkel Fahrradbau acquired the evolution of the original business and moved it to Mäbendorf near Suhl. Franz Gnädig left the partnership at this time & the whole of the ship sank in 1932 when Paul Henkel commited suicide in 1932. This was the motorcycle wing...."

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Yes, there was "Krieger & Gnädig" listed as a "Gun producer", mostly a machining shop, listed in Suhl pre-WW1. One of the Krieger brothers (or their father?) had a business in the Suhl guntrade, together with Mr. Gnädig (or his father?). Though the Krieger brothers were mentioned with Berlin address by the Krieger-Gnädig (sic!) motorcycle info, they set up their bike making not there, but in far away Suhl. Most likely they had access to an existing, already suitably equipped shop there. The combination of gun(-parts)making and parts making for bicycles, motors, cars, typewriters was not unusual then in all the guntade, see f.i. Simson, Ehrhard, BSA and so on.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Even during my time in Germany( 1971-82), I understand Heym made various automobile parts in their factory in Muennerstadt. I know they made sub-caliber training devices for Artillery Forward Observers training. Seeing them in the factory, I recognized them from my own training. While our younger friends may disagree, that was not long ago. Unless I miss my guess, Different gun makers still do this, if economical for them.
Mike