Shotgun ID help

[trappererick]

Hello, my name is Erick Schaefer and i am new to this forum. I have inherited two german shotguns from my dad and am looking for some help with any history and value of the two guns.

Gun # 1 1. 28.5" barrels that have been re-choked to modified and improved cylinder, Markings on barrel say Rheinmetall and Ehrhard Lauf is on each barrel in a circular pattern. The gun has a nice walnut stock with swivels and some scroll type engraving on the reciever. Action locks up tight and gun functions very well and has killed a lot of grouse and woodcock for me. Bluing is gone from barrels and stock has some damage to the wrist area and a small chip on edge of forearm. The proof mark is a square inside a circle. I was told the following in another forum,"#1 is from Rheinmetall (Rheinische Metallwaren und Maschinenfabrik Aktiengesellschaft) a company founded in 1889 by Heinrich Ehrhardt and has a long history in german gunmaking."







This is what I know about gun #2 2. gun #2 has 28" barrels not sure of chocke but belive it is improved and modified. Writing on barrels says Fluss-Stahl Krupp-Essen serial # 51468 on both barrels and reciever. Barrel also has Gustloff Werke Waffenwerk SUHL written on it. There is a rib with two beads. Action locks up tight and gun functions perfectly, stock is walnut and in good shape, barrels have good bluing some scroll engraving on reciever. On each barrel is a 16 in a circle and then 70mm underneath that and then a capital N and on one barrel under the N is somesort of sheild and then the number 942. In another forum I was told that this gun #2 is from Gustloff Werke Waffenwerk, formerly Simson & Co. a very good gunmaker owned by the Jewish. In 1936, under the nazi regime they had to leave the company wich was renamed BSW (Berlin Suhler Waffenwerk), later, in 1939 it was changed to Gustloff.







Can anyone shed any more history and give a value on these two guns?

[mike ford]

Erick,
Some of the people that responded to you on the other forum are valued members of this forum also. The information they gave you is correct as far as they could go,lacking photos of the proofmarks on the barrels. The "70" you mentioned,under the "16 in a circle", means the gun #2 is chambered for 16 ga 2 3/4". Photos may indicate whether it was originally so chambered or rechambered and marked later. If one or both barrels are marked with a "W",it (they) is (are) choked. Chokes at this time were usually pretty tight ( this was before modern shotshells). Since gun #1 has been rechoked, it may have been rechambered also. If there is no "70"(70mm chamber length) next to the 16 (or 12, you didn't say), then it originally had 65mm ( 2 9/16") chamber, which was the standard length at the time. If it was rechambered, it may have a "70" on the extractor, or may not be marked.This may be checked with a chamber length gauge. Good photos may reveal the date of manufacture and other info such as where it was proofed and maybe who put the barrels together. Since you are a new member, you may not be aware that there was an article about the Simson family being able to recently regain some of their property. Past issues of both GGCA publications are avaliable from the "home office", for a nominal fee. Mike

[trappererick]

Mike,

Thanks. I suspected that the same people frequent both boards and I appreciate all their help and I was directed by one of those helpfull people to check out this forum for some additional help.

I know gun # 1 had the chambers lengthened when the chockes were done but has no markings, my dad had the work done before he gave it to me and it is a 16 gauge.

As for gun # 2 there are no W's on the barrels or reciever. The only thing I can see is the 16 in a circle and then 70mm and then some sort of wing symbol above a capital letter "N" and on the left barrel below this capital "N" is some sort of shield shaped crest with the number 942 under that. This marking is all on the the piece that locks the barrel to the reciever. The barrels themselves have the wing symbol with the letter "M" instead of "N" with the right barrel having what looks like a capital G and the left barrel has the same captital G. On the reciever itself the only markings are the wing symbol with a capital N underneath it and below this and slightly offset is the symbol that looks like a capital "G". Thre is also the #51468 on the opposite side from the other markings and then down iside where the locking lug for the barrel fits is the #68. I have tried to take pictures but my automatic flash keeps washing out the symbols. Both guns are in great shape and lock up tight and are great upland bird guns. I have shot many grouse and woodcock using the Rheinmetall. In fact I juust got a new German Shorthair pup that I hope to shoot some more birds over him this fall.

Erick

[mike ford]

Erik,
Without being able to see the proofmarks, the following may be wrong ( it may be wrong anyway). When you mention a "wing symbol" and "N" on gun #2, it leads me to believe it was proofed under the 1939 rules, implemented in 1940. The " wing symbol" would be the Reich Adler (eagle) and the "N" would show "smokeless definitive proof". The "shield shaped crest" may be the house mark for the Suhl proofhouse, and the number 942 may mean the gun was proofed Sept. 1942. This would be consistent with the gun being proofed under the 1939 rules. The "W" mark to show a choked barrel would have been if the gun had been proofed under earlier than the 1939 rules( 1891 rules). The Reich Adler with "M" shows Provisional proof for barrels of all shotguns. The 51468 is the serial number ( also shown on action and forearm) and the "68" is the last two digits of the serial number( to keep important parts together). As for the "G", it may be the mark of one of the craftsmen working on the gun. Maybe Axel or Raimey will correct any bad info in the above opinion. I don't know where my head is: if gun #2 is the Gustloff, of course it was proofed under the 1939 rules.

Mike

[trappererick]

Mike,
Thanks so much for the information you provided. I am actually going to try and get a rubbing of the proof marks as the pictures just aren't working out. Hopefully the rubbing will provide me with an image I can than scan into my computer for you guys to take a look at.

Erick

[hendrik]

Hello,
the gunnumber its a number from the Imman. Meffert company from Suhl .
Also the Erhard steel barrels its a sign for meffert.
Meffert use this steeel.
Maybe i can more say, of i see good pictures.
best greetings from germany
hendrik

[mike ford]

hendrik,
Do you mean the Gun#1?Which number do you mean? I agree with you that better pictures are needed. If there is a small "Huburtus" anywhere on the gun,for sure it is a Meffert. Other members know more about this than I do. What part of Germany do you live in? Welcome, glad to have you.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Hendrik F.:

Glad to have you join our merry band. Do you know if there were family ties between Meffert & Heinrich Ehrhardt / Rheinische Metallwaaren- und Maschinenfabrik Aktiengesellschaft?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse