New member with question on a Austrian combination rifle.

[lastditch]

Found this forum to hopefully get a couple of question answered to a combination rifle I recently picked up.
Condition is shootable, but has a poorly repaired cracked stock and had heavy rust at muzzle end from who know what kind of storage.
I collect military firearms, so this is out of my line of collecting. It was picked up with two WW2 era rifle, from on line searches I learned this combination rifle is post WW2.
I believe the maker is Johann Sigot. The shotgun barrel appears to be 16 ga., I found no useful information for learning caliber. I believe it is a 7mm, but have learned I will need a chamber cast for exact cartridge.
If some could help me out with cal. Information it would much appreciated. I would like to shoot this piece, it has a great fit feels great.
As for the butt stock, it looks like it has been repaired twice. If you look close in photos you can see the round ends from dowel rods. Looks to have been a nice repair. Second repair is when the bolts were put in. With 2 repair already which seem solid do I just live with it as is or is it worth trying to have a new stock made.
Thank you in advance.
Tom

[sharps4590]

First off welcome to the forum lastditch!! I believe I would try the gun as is first. My Bartles stalking rifle has a similar repair at the wrist and it's never given me the first concern. However, it is in a much lighter recoiling cartridge, the 8.15 X 46R. If the bores are good I wouldn't worry myself over the corrosion at the muzzles.

I can't make out the picture of the proof marks but the cartridge should me named in them. A chamber cast is always a good idea. I have 3 rifles that were advertised as one cartridge and turned out to be something completely different.

[mike ford]

lastditch,
Welcome to the site. You are correct that a chamber cast will be needed to determine the nominal caliber. While I can't make out all the numbers, I believe the 7.3 indicates you are correct, also, in the rifle being one of the 7mms. While there are other possibilities, the most likely is either 7x57R, 7x65R, or 7x72R. If it is one of these, a chamber cast will show which, without even having to take detailed measurements. Your assessment that the shotgun is 16ga is also correct, however you should check chamber length. If it is 2 1/2- 2 9/16", shells are available, but may have to be specially ordered. Austrian proof marks are not my strong suit, and I didn't research the data string, but the gun shows other indications of being pre or wartime production, rather than post war. The strongest is the lack of a scope, while it has clawmount bases. The Germans(and Austrians) were required to turn their guns in, for destruction, after the war. Very often, the scopes were removed prior to the turn in. It is possible that the broken stock and corrosion at the muzzle, was suffered at this time, before being rescued by a GI( this part is rank speculation). The corrosion could have been caused by blood, salt, acid, or some other corrosive being left on it during shipment/storage. The damage can be removed, but in my opinion, the process would leave the barrels too thin. There are stock makers that can make very nice repairs to your stock, or the old stock can be body putty repaired, then used as a pantograph pattern to produce a duplicate stock( use "English" rather than Black Walnut). Whether you do either of these, or leave it "as is" is entirely up to you.
I am sure others will weigh in, and may have differing opinions.
Mike

[Axel E]

Johann Sigott, 1872 – 1955, was a gunmaker at Ferlach #34, Austria. His lifespan speaks for a pre-WW2 date of the gun, as he was already over retirement age at the end of that war. The markings on the shot barrel, 16.9 and 15.9 mm show it as a full-choked 16 gauge, most likely chambered for 2 ½" cases. The rifle barrel is marked 6.9 mm = .272" bore and 7.3 mm = .287" groove diameters. There ought to be more proofmarks under barrels, close to the underlug, and on the watertable, not shown in your photos. At least there should be the NPf Ferlach nitro proof mark, as prescribed by law. Maybe the rifle cartridge is marked near the NPf mark. Then there should be a proofhouse ledger number with the last two numbers of the year, but this may be hidden in the lengthy and, for me, undecypherable set of numbers on the side rib. If so, 1935 is a possible date. 1265 g = 2.79 pounds was the weight of the barrel assembly at proof, a safeguard against thinning the barrels after proof. A better photo of the marks above 1265 g is desirable too.

[lastditch]

Thank you for the quick response, I did learn I got the gun maker wrong. Looks like Walter Outschar is the maker, in Alex E response he mention maker 34, mine appears to be 35. The reference I used on line has a scrabbled column for makers after 1947.
I took some better photos of proof marks, if I interpret correctly the rifle was made in May 1955.
Rifle bore at muzzle looks fairly clean, shot barrel at muzzle has scattered rust for about ½ inch down. When I got this piece it was not cleaned up, muzzle end looked pretty nasty, so far it looking better than I expected.
Over the years I have had several claw mount scope, never thought I would have a use for one.
Are there claw mounts available to mount a American style scope?
Tom “lastditch”

[Axel E]

The gun was first proofed by the Ferlach proofhouse (eagle + NPf) as gun # 2245 in 1935. It was exported to Czechoslowakia, where it was proofed again, Prague proofhouse (lion/N) , proof # 4336, 1935 also. The new – founded Czech state did not accept German or Austrian proof, though they followed the Austrian proof protocol. Until 1918 they were parts of the Austro – Hungarian empire. Both the size of the rim recess and the service load marking 11.2 gramm MantelGeschoss = 173 gr jacketed bullet point to the 7x57R cartridge. 555 is the maker's serial number.

[mike ford]

lastditch,
In answer to your question about claw mounts to fit American scopes; not really. I'm guessing you were asking about mounts that you can install, yourself. The bases on your rifle were spaced to fit a particular scope, which was very possibly soldered to the rings( half rings). It is very difficult, if not impossible to find an American scope, that can be mounted with the correct eye relief and at the same time with the turret not interfering with American rings. Ernst Apel Wuerzburg (EAW) has a system that converts claw mount bases to swing mounts. New England Custom Guns, uses some EAW mounts and may be able to help you. One of the problems with claw mounts is that the scope has to be mounted high enough that the Objective Bell doesn't strike the barrel, when "tipping" the scope "on" and "off". Swing mounts avoid this problem. NECG can mount an American scope in Claw mounts, but this would be more expensive. I suggest you call and talk to them about this.
Mike

[lastditch]

thank you for the help

First off thank to all who provided information. Much of what I learned I could not have found myself.
The proof marks threw me off, several on line sight have the NPf proof listed as used after 1981, NRA museum sight being one of them. The 9-8 are transposed. Most of the other proofs listed were used 1891 on. Once Alex E put a date to it I figured something was screwy. I recognized the Czech lion from being used on military firearms, but would have never figured why it was on this piece.
After seeing scope set up prices, it will be the folding open sights, most likely will use the shotgun for rabbits or grouse if all works out.
Last photos are of barrel most likely maker name, should have did that one first. Aussig on one side of barrel apparently is a port city in Czechoslovakia. Any idea on the eagle on the bottom, trademark?
Once again thank you for the help, most likely this will be the only one I will ever own. My interest has definitely been peaked, so you never know.
Tom “lastditch”

[algmule]

Hello

I found a Strowik who in 1917 was peddling antlers (Geweihhandlung) out of Aussig a. d. Elbe Bhm (Böhmen i suppose). That does not tell us that he was peddling guns, but, in 1911 there was a Strowik, Weisskirchen (possibly Weitzkirchen) who was not only dealing in Geweih but was also selling "neue Jagdgewehre". This 1911-Strowik I believe to be a Franz jr Strowik as Franz Strowik sr in 1893 shot his wife and then shot himself. This killer Strowik was from Lechtine bei Aussig. Closer in time (1925) to the topic of the thread was a Strowik dealing in Geweih out of Hadringerhof, Bad Hall, Oberösterreich.

Without having the slightest my guess would be that the Strowik on your gun was a retailer. Sorry, that´s all I have. For now.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

Aussig, now Usti nad Labem, is a city in Northern Bohemia, Czech Republic, close to the German border. Until 1945, when nearly all Germans were expelled from Czechia, it had a mostly, 75% German speaking population. Nothing is known about a F.H. Strowik in Aussig. Obviously he had a gunshop there in the 1930s. The eagle over S may have been Strowik's own trademark. As the gun was made by the Ferlach guntrade for retail by Strowik, the eagle/S and the address were most likely engraved by the Ferlach maker, as usual for the European guntrade then.

[algmule]

Hello

A Waffenhändler Strowik is mentioned here http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scr...ch/dasd05.html

Kind regards
Peter

[ellenbr]

This is the trademark of Franz Sodia.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse