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The serial number ought to be on the underside of the barrel, besides the proofmarks.
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Axel E there are no other markings anywhere on barrel, there is just a single number 2 on the low left side of receiver IMG_2703.jpgComment
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Welcome to the forum!
Due to my experience with the 5.6 which is documented in another thread on this site, I would chamber cast your rifle. Mine was out of spec by .007 which led to my dies having to be modified-- which delayed my load development. Diz and Mike have a wealth of knowledge concerning the 5.6, and I would still be scratching my head if it were not for them.
Once again welcome to the site and that rifle is quite a work of art.Comment
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308SON,
Since your brass is boxer primed, you are "good to go" with handloading. You should be able to get decent groups with .227/.228 bullets intended for 22 Savage HP, as long as you keep velocity to around 3000 fps. It seems these bullets set the limit on velocity. With bullets intended for higher velocity, you can go quite a bit higher, but the consensus is the advertised velocities are not reasonably attainable. While I don't know of any verified cases; it has been stated that this cartridge might be subject to "detonation", similar to that reported years ago in the 270 with reduced loads of slow burning powders( also not verified). Out of an abundance of caution, I suggest you use a medium burning powder for 3000 fps loads with the 22 Sav.HP bullets. If you decide to have a bullet mold made to cast bullets, I suggest you have it cut to drop bullets a little over the groove diameter. I generally like my cast bullets .002" over groove diameter, but don't have much experience with cast bullets this small, so .001" might be enough. At the same time, you can have it made to use normal .224" gas checks. Of course, a faster powder, such as Unique, or one of the "newer" powders with similar burning rate, should be used. Actually, cast bullets could be a fun alternative to high velocity jacketed bullets. The large powder capacity can create other challenges to finding an acceptable cast bullet load. Even though it is controversial, I usually use a filler in such cases, but the method I use would not be reasonably possible in the case of small neck in this cartridge.
MikeComment
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Wernerhelm, Thank you I will chamber cast and try to document it, I am ordering casting alloy from midway anyway. I purchased a mannlicher schoenauer 1908 that has been re chambered to 8x57 I'd have to start a whole new thread to describe it from purchase to present condition. Lol but I've done my own checkering, and smithing on her. In a nut shell it shoots extremely accurate at 100 yards, neck is case forming and I've bulged and split the last 1/2 inch off case on extraction so it's on my list to chamber cast already.IMG_2710.jpgComment
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308SON,
Is there some stamp on your MS 1908 that makes you think it has been rechambered, or do you have first hand knowledge of it having been done? The dimensions of the 8x56 MS is close enough to 8x57 that they are often confused. Add to this, manufacturing tolerances sometimes result in a mod 1908, that may chamber an 8x57 cartridge. Additionally, Austrian cartridge designations often don't include the rim thickness in case length, whereas German designations usually do, so the measurements don't necessarily coincide. The source of your case splits might be the use of 8x57 cases in a shorter chamber, even though they chamber. The cams on the rifle's bolt can exert pretty high force on the cartridge, and can sometimes force a case neck into the leade. The case could then not expand to release the bullet, thereby driving up chamber pressure. A test is to see if a .323" bullet will easily enter a case fired in that chamber.
MikeComment
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308SON,
Mike & Wernerhelm give excellent suggestions regarding the rifle and loading. I have never tried to tone mine down much but have some slow powder loads in the 3100 fps range and don’t feel a need to go much slower. I prefer certain slow powders for this cartridge because the bulk fills the case better. I believe Mike is correct that filler will not work correctly in this case. Your Hornebers are excellent cases and should last a long time if annealed and not overworked by small dies. I have seen this problem from some die makers before. Good lube and going very slowly will get the 25-06 formed without much trouble but annealing is the key. If you are getting separations from shooting than I would suggest chamber cast as wernerhelm mentioned. It will show what you need to know.
You can expect very good accuracy from this cartridge. During load development I shot a five-shot group of slightly less than ¾” that should have been under a half inch if I hadn’t gotten sloppy on the trigger. This was at a hundred yards from a rest at a 3450 fps average with some bumped up Sierra 77 grain TMK’s. I am a relative novice at bullet casting so I can’t help you there. Your rifle is very nice and you will certainly be the only one at the range with one!
Thanks, DizComment
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Diz, Thanks on the complement it still throws me off it doesn't have a serial number . I planed on Rcbs dies I haven't ordered yet is there any specific brand y'all use ? Mike ford, it's clearly stamped 8x57 on barrel I did confirm.323 not .318 and it was advertised as such 8x57js but the 1908 only factory clambering was 8x56MS
I haven't ordered any 8x56ms yet but was going to try them, just from what I've shot I measured case dementions and at the shoulder after shooting it is equivalent to 8x56ms specs I was going to chamber cast it A) find out exactly B) I've never done it before. LolComment
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Diz, Thanks on the complement it still throws me off it doesn't have a serial number . I planed on Rcbs dies I haven't ordered yet is there any specific brand y'all use ? Mike ford, it's clearly stamped 8x57 on barrel I did confirm.323 not .318 and it was advertised as such 8x57js but the 1908 only factory clambering was 8x56MS
I haven't ordered any 8x56ms yet but was going to try them, just from what I've shot I measured case dementions and at the shoulder after shooting it is equivalent to 8x56ms specs I was going to chamber cast it A) find out exactly B) I've never done it before. LolComment
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Diz were the sierra 77g tmks.228?Comment
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308SON,
I bumped up the Sierra's in my bullet swage. Sierra makes these with a heavier jacket that can take the velocity the vH can deliver. They worked better than bumped Hornady's and didn't seem to copper the bore as bad either. However, you are right about it being hard on the barrel and better to load it down. I can do some of those bullets for you if you like. I have a set of RCBS and CH4D dies in 5.6x61 and they are both a little small at the base. I also have a set of RCBS in neck size and they are OK. Call RCBS before you order and confirm the base diameters against your chamber cast. I think some were made using reworked -06 reamers. You don't want to reform the base after every shot. It is very hard on the brass.
It is a very nice rifle and perhaps it actually is serial #2 but others here know a lot more about that than I do.
PM me about the bullets, I would be happy to help you out. DizComment
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308SON,
Go back and review Diz's comments about the base diameter of your chamber and of your sizing die. This is actually the point that makes the use of 25-06 (or any 06 based case) reasonably possible. With correctly dimensioned dies, the cases will only have to greatly expand at the base once. If the die sizes the fired case back to 06 size, each time, this will cause early work hardening and failure at the base area of the cases. We often use annealing to correct for work hardening; but this is only for the neck and shoulder of the case, never the base. I didn't want to mention it, unless he did, but Diz will do a first class job for you; if you accept his offer to "bump up" some bullets for you. I know this from personal experience.
Back to the MS 1908. From the photo, it seems the rifle has been reworked. For a "using" rifle, this isn't disturbing, but such rifles are sometimes incorrectly marked by whoever reworks them( this is different than rechambering and correctly marking to match the new chamber).This is usually the result of misunderstanding rather than some nebulous intent. A post war MS ( Mod 1956,etc) might have a clear caliber marking on the barrel, but a Mod 1908 would not. Clearly, it was so marked later, the question being the correctness of the marking. The commonly listed bullet diameter for 8x56 MS is .323"; my reason for suggestion to try a bullet in a fired case was not to determine if it had a .318" barrel. Instead it was to determine if the correct diameter bullet is being "jammed" in the chamber, driving up the pressure. This could be shown from a chambercast, but precise measurements of lengths are very difficult under the best of circumstances, and a cast of a bolt action's chamber doesn't have a precise point to start length measurements from.
MikeComment
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Diz, Mike ford PM has been sent and most appreciated invite! On the MS I ordered a box of 8x56 mannlicher schoenauer
Shells and also found a set of 8x57 go-no go gauges in hoping with the ms cartridges it will tell the tale, The rifle is also matching numbers throughout, does or would 8x57 have any other meaning? I remember an article I found quite a while back with a rifle stamped 8x57 but it also was incorrect chamber. I've searched to re- read it but haven't come across it again.Comment
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308Son,
The 8x57 headspace gauges may not show you much. You know the rifle will accept an 8x57 cartridge, so it is likely to accept the "Go" gauge. Conversely, the "No Go" should cause resistance to closing the bolt in even a maximum 8x57 chamber. Remember, headspace gauges are only ground to include the area from the head to "datum line"( the part that bears on the chamber). It doesn't have the neck area, and this is the very area under suspicion. It is a good thing that the numbers match, but , in my considered opinion, the 8x57 mark is not original to the rifle. these rifles were not marked in that manner until later models. I am interested in what you learn from shooting 8x56 MS ammo in the rifle.
MikeComment
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Mike, thanks for the kind words. I have gotten a lot from the group and it's the least I can do to give back a little.
308SON, we will talk after the Holiday.
Have a great Thanksgiving, DizComment
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