5.6x61 vhse Rich Mahrholdt&Sohn-Innsbruck info welcomed

[308SON]

image.jpg
I'm new to the forum world but I've been eves dropping and I'm impressed at the wealth of information.
I have been buying my supplies to start reloading 5.6x61mm vom hofe super express and I'm sure in the near future I will be picking your brains for information so thanks for the add and feel free to comment on picture or give advice on reloading tips

[mike ford]

308SON,
Glad to have you with us, several of us shoot 5.6x61 vom Hofe, both rimmed and rimless versions.
Mike

[308SON]

Thanks Mike, its rimless I have 1 live round and 20rds virgin brass.
I'm still acquiring ingredients and parts for Rcbs rc . And I've never reloaded before, lol
From what I've been reading y'all talk about , I've picked an easy cartridge
To reload. WRONG! But I'm sure by time I'm done i will be older and wiser.
Do you think I should save the original brass?
Does anyone sell any reloads?

[308SON]

Thanks Mike, its rimless I have 1 live round and 20rds virgin brass.
I'm still acquiring ingredients and parts for Rcbs rc . And I've never reloaded before, lol
From what I've been reading y'all talk about , I've picked an easy cartridge
To reload. WRONG! But I'm sure by time I'm done i will be older and wiser.
Do you think I should save the original brass?
Does anyone sell any reloads?

[mike ford]

308SON,
Mine is the rimmed version, but a couple others have the rimless. Diz is likely to be especially helpful. What make is the brass? Is the one round the same make? Is the brass berdan or boxer primed? Berdan primed cases are perfectly useable, but a little more trouble. You should absolutely save the original brass, I don't know of anyone that sells reloads.
Mike

[308SON]

I'll post pics tonight. I'm looking forward to making my own ammo I just wish I was set up and ready to load.
Diz and yourself have already been more helpful than you know I've been stalking this site for a while but figured to
Sign up and get in the archives.

[308SON]

I'll post pics tonight. I'm looking forward to making my own ammo I just wish I was set up and ready to load.
Diz and yourself have already been more helpful than you know I've been stalking this site for a while but figured to
Sign up and get in the archives.

[Diz]

308SON,

Welcome aboard! That is a fine looking rifle you have and hope to see more of it. You are lucky in a way because rimmed brass for the 5.6x61vH is relatively easy to get. Huntington's has it in stock from Bertram. It is pricey but worth the expense rather than try to form it from other cases. Mike has a great deal of experience with the rimmed version and no doubt could help with many tips. Bullets will be your secondary problem but Hornady does make a .227" diameter 70 grain bullet that can work if not pushed too hard. Kiwibloke has a couple vH's and may come in on the thread. Wernerhelm just completed a very difficult project of getting a rimless vH shooting and I am sure he may have something to contribute. There are also very good articles written by Mike and Axel on the guns and cartridges that are available from the club. For someone new to handloading you picked a good one to start with but there is a lot of help here and I am sure you will be happy with the results once you get to shoot it. Best of luck with your project.

Diz

[Kiwi_bloke]

Hi 308SON. Where are you based? Some of the answers will be influenced by that.

Different reloaders have different approaches, but this is my advice:

You have jumped in the deep end of reloading, so you will need to be careful. Follow the load-data very closely. If it says magnum primer, that is what you use. Or if standard, use only standard for that recipe. If you're not sure if a number shown in data like RWS 5333 is standard or magnum, look it up online. You don't have to use the exact same brand of primer however.

It is called the 5,6x61 for a reason. The case is exactly 61,00mm long. That's 2.402" (rounded off). Be very sure never to reload any case that is longer than this without first trimming it.

Take 10 thousands of an inch from that max. length and you have 2.392" That's you trim length. Have you got a vernier that measures to 0.001"?

The bullet diameter is the same as the .22 Savage Hi-Power. That is, it is .227-.228" (in metric, it is 5,79mm). Do not load smaller .224" bullets, however tempting. Hornady 70-grain .227/8" bullets will probably do fine, but if you discover that the target you shot 5 rounds at only has 3 holes and some small bits, then one or more bullets have flown apart from being driven too fast, (after all, they were designed to go about 1,000 feet slower in the Savage rifle!). Whether this happens to you will depend in part on luck and perhaps also how microscopically rough your bore is. I find Hornady much better than Speer. I will not use Speer again in a 5,6 vom Hofe. RWS make a 71-grain .227/8" bullet which seems to hold together, if you can get them. If you have a source of Degol bullets, (from Belgium), they make a strong-jacket bullet specifically for the 5,6x61 which is ideal. It is even has the original "paraboloid" shape, (i.e. like the nose of a Zeppelin).

The maximum overall cartridge length, with bullet in place, (according to Wiederladen by Friedhelm Kersting in DEVA Wiederladen); is 80,00mm (or 3.150"). Be very careful of any data typed online by someone well-meaning, (e.g. including me!). Be sure to get actual published data yourself first. You have come to the right place for that!

Make sure the bullet is seated in the neck of the case at least the equivalent of 1 diameter, (i.e. 0.228"), so long as the overall length seated is no more than 3.150" long. Don't worry about "seating to the lands" with this calibre. Chances are it is free-bored and you cannot do it without the bullet nearly falling out of the case.

Cases are made by Horneber, Gehmann and perhaps by others now. Treat them like gold. If you have problems with new or used cases neck splitting you will need to get them annealed. Do you do bullet casting? If so, they can be annealed in molten lead but there is a technique so ask me how, (and especially how not to).

You can convert 9,3x62 cases to 5,6x61 SE vH but you need a very expensive set of RCBS conversion dies which include, for instance, a neck reamer.

RCBS makes a good set of FL dies. If the 20 cases you have are Berdan primed, then you might break your decapping pin trying to punch the primer out. If you shine a light down the case, do you see a single central flash-hole, (Boxer primed), or one or two small holes off to one side? (Berdan primed). If Berdan, let us know first and we'll explain further. What brand are they, BTW and do they have any other marks on the head like a pentagon or random letters? That might tell us how old they are. Does a magnet stick to the loaded round's bullet? If so, it might pay not to shoot it.

A Hornady concentricity tool is helpful, but not essential. If you contact Hornady direct, and tell them what you have, they may sell you an inline sliding bullet seater for this calibre. It's not the same as the .227/8" .22 Savage High Power because the brass neck is thicker in the vom Hofe round. If you'd like to go this way, send me a PM and I'll tell you who to ask there. However their seating die is not essential, just nice to have.

Make sure a good gunsmith has a look at your rifle first to make sure it is clean and safe before you shoot it. It will be good to get it out of the stock and just check there's no hidden rust, for instance, that there's no cracks in the stock mortise, that the king-screws are not seized and etc. There may also be proof marks that could help age the rifle, on the barrel inside the stock. Post your photos here!

Be sure to use the exact powder shown in data. For instance, if it says IMR 4831, don't use H4831. If it says 51.5 grains, then do not exceed that. Likewise, do not reduce loads more than 10% to start them off. Always begin with a starting load. Be sure to wear shooting safety glasses and ear muffs at the range. A chronograph is a good investment because it gives you feedback; if your load is too weak or too hot, too inconsistent, etc. Otherwise you're in the dark. How hard is it to lift the bolt handle and extract a round may tell you if things are too hot. But this can also simply mean you haven't set the shoulder back enough when you Full Length resized it.

If you make a mistake, (we all do), a bullet puller can be handy.

Because this cartridge has a large case and a small bullet, it's called "over-bored". What this means is, if you are not careful you can burn out a barrel quickly. Here's what you need to do:

Be very sure to clean the bore thoroughly before you begin. You need to get as much copper out as possible. Suggest you get some Bore-Tech Eliminator because you can leave it in the barrel overnight without damage, (so the makers tell me). Be sure to put the rifle in your safe muzzle down so anything that drips out does not get into the action or the wooden stock. Put a bit of thick cardboard there to collect the drips from the muzzle and throw it away afterwards. Get a good fitting bronze rifle brush. It might be easiest to use a 6mm. Get a bore protector so you don't damage the leade, (where the rifling starts). I suggest you get a good cleaning rod such as Pro-shot make. A poor rod can also rasp away your leade by rubbing along it.

To find out if you are winning with getting the copper out, some people suggest you look at the patch and if it is still green, keep going. But the jag is usually what is making the patch green after the initial soak and brushing. I suggest instead you get something to magnify with. Cheap reading glasses that magnify things 2x will do. Shine a bright light down the muzzle and look at it from the muzzle-end. Can you see streaks of copper sitting alongside the rifling? If so, put some more Eliminator in and leave overnight again. Mop it out in the morning, pass the bore brush through several times and the dry the bore and have another look. If the brush is worn, you'll need to get a new one. Again I'd recommend Pro-shot.

Be very careful about pulling the brush backwards from the muzzle, don't yank it back. Some people would even say unscrew it. But as long as you are very careful to lift it so it is centred with the bore, before pulling it back, it shouldn't harm the muzzle crown. If the rifling edge/s inside the crown are already damaged, see a gunsmith. It's a cheap fix for poor accuracy.

Now that you have got back to bare steel, you are ready to shoot. Shoot slowly, meaning if it takes 2 minutes between shots for the barrel to cool, (to the touch), don't rush it or you will wear your barrel out very quickly in any "over-bored" cartridge. Don't shoot more than 10 rounds at the range with this rifle without giving it another clean. Put the solvent in while the barrel is still hot. Most chemical reactions work better with heat added. Dry it, scrub it with the bore brush and then a clean patch or 3. Don't shoot with any residual oil in the barrel, of course.

BTW, rimmed brass, (probably made by Bertram of Australia), apparently has a very high fail rate if you try to trim the rim off and make it into a rimless round. At least, that is what I have been told.

So, best of luck and keep us posted.

[308SON]

Wealth of knowledge Kiwi-Bloke, Diz, Mike! I apologize to all I wish I could tell you I've been in Hatari on safari but I work in the oil and gas industry 21/7 schedule so not much time between wells to chat,so don't think I've forgot about y'all. And I'm heading home tonight and will saturate with photos. I will answer all questions best I can. The 20 virgins are boxed prime, and rimless. I live in south Texas by Corpus Christi. Great tips for bore cleaning I also have a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1908 im going to try that technique on as well. I will try my best tonight to add pics, but may not be able to reply same day but will at first chance I get. Thanks guys!

[Diz]

308SON, sorry but somehow I thought you had the rimmed version of the vH. Factory brass is preferred but very difficult to find. A good case can be made from 25-06 brass with a standard set of dies if you are careful about annealing and set the shoulder back very slowly. There is a difference in the head diameter with the '06 being about 0.007" smaller but the case will blow out on fire forming and they can be just as accurate as factory. KiwiBloke makes a lot of very good points especially about safety and taking data with a grain of salt. I posted a long dissertation on my experience with the vH some time ago and if you look up the thread "Gehmann-Konstanz 5.6x61 vom Hofe" you will find it. I was using the nom de plume "collath" at the time. It contains load data as well but you are completely on your own with that and the liability is yours. Published data may be better if you can find it. This is a very interesting cartridge and I think worth the effort to get it shooting. Best, Diz

[308SON]

IMG_2698.jpgDiz, the plan is to use 25-06 and save the factory. Liability is mine, in not looking to push it and burn the barrel out but would like it to be accurate. What kind of groups are y'all seeing on paper? And what yardage or meters? Has anyone thought of having a 77grain mold made for .228 ? Here are sum pictures of rifle and cartridges. I was surprised also no serial number? Was each Peterlongo a one off gun? As always thanks for the education guys!

[308SON]

IMG_2712.jpg not sure how to load multiple pics off my phone so bear with me please

[308SON]

IMG_2701.jpgIMG_2702.jpgIMG_2703.jpgIMG_2699.jpgIMG_2709.jpg
I'm figuring this out slowly....I'm almost positive learning to reload vhse will be easier!

[308SON]

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